Va Tech: Police Response article

[taliv]

I guess we could put an explosive breaching kit into every squad car...Naw..then the same people who are saying the response was too slow would say the police are being militarized.

Jeff

the fundamental delusion here is that police are the answer. it's a typical government response that proposes something flawed, then when it fails, they say the problem wasn't the theory, but rather that there wasn't enough and so we need to throw more good money after bad.

the answer is not that we need more police, or that the police need more military gear or more money or more training. heck, if 911 had dispatched the US Army itself, the outcome would have been no different.

 

[gezzer]

Monday morning quarterbacking here, The doors were chained so they could not open?, Students, teachers in the building?

Under the laws in the state I worked the administrators and persons who chained the doors shut would be charged a count of manslaughter at the minimum for each death that occurred do to this under the fire laws.

Fire or not this charge would have been placed. The fire resulting in the propulsion of the bullets can be considered a deliberate fire set for each shot.

Blocking doors of escape with chains or any other item has historically led to multiple deaths and is illegal in every state I know. Shooter or not they delayed help and this is at a minimum criminal negligence.

If the PD is using it as an excuse charges are warranted period.

 

[Lucky]

Blocking doors of escape with chains or any other item has historically led to multiple deaths and is illegal in every state I know. Shooter or not they delayed help and this is at a minimum criminal negligence.

Brother, you don't know the half of it. ...if that.

 

[Car Knocker]

Geezer,

According to all the reports I've seen or heard, the shooter, Cho Seung-Hui, is the person who chained the doors so they couldn't be opened - not VT personnel.

 

[ilbob]

I don't think the officers stood around waiting because they didn't want to break any glass. I've broken plenty of glass, door jambs etc. in the line of duty. Until I know otherwise, I'm going to assume that the officers didn't have the tools they needed to effect entry immediately available to them.

I am inclined to agree. It seems unlikely that they would just go to the door and hang out there because they thought it was a good idea.

Considering how fast this happened (9 minutes is not very long unless someone is shooting at you), and that the criminal had the foresight to chain the doors shut, the cops probably did about as well as they could as fast as they could.

 

[roo_ster]

JW:

Yep, those WPA buildings erected in the 1930's are heck-for-stout, no expense spared structures.

If they were built in that era and the frames were of steel, the likelihood of getting through with only man-powered tools before the cows come home is small. A 5' pry bar would be the only thing with a chance.

Assuming they were of such construction is the charitable thing to do.

About the only (relatively) commonly available, quick, rough & ready option is steel cable from a 4x4 with a powered winch. The winch motor couldn't do it, but the cabling secured to a frame-mounted tow hitch or secured to the frame itself could. I've seen/done that sort of thing done, before, when I did residential tree removal. I would not expect most folks to figure that one out without a pointer.

What we are lacking is detailed knowledge of their construction.

 

[Coronach]

We were discussing this the other night at work. My solutions?

1. Cruisers should have halligan tools, like fire squads. Ours, of course, do not.

2. The ultimate door opener is the push bumper of a cruiser. This assumes that one can get a cruiser up to the door (steps and landscaping...in many instances the very safety features used to thwart VBIEDs and rammings will prevent this tactic). And, in many instances, you don't know what's on the other side. If you think going to a mass shooting is bad, going to a mass shooting where you crush several innocent people with your cruiser is worse.

3. If the door has a stout handle, you could try to loop a chain to pull it free, using the cruiser as your winch. Most times that would result in you using your Crown Vic to pop off a door knob or handle. Might be helpful, might not.

Mike

 

[bogie]

Pick one side of the locking mechanism. Put a magazine into it. Bet it'll be a lot looser.

Time elapsed: Under 10 seconds.

 

[thexrayboy]

Monday morning quarterbacking of police response to insane situations serves no purpose. LEO train to respond to incidents that have happened in the past. They use these tools to respond to incidents that occur in the future.
The problem being no two incidents are the same. Each has different elements that contribute to uncertainty. LEO train for as many broad scenarios as they can. Many train hard and at personal expense because they enjoy it. The training and planning for bizarre responses is the frosting that keeps the cake part of the job from becoming boring. LEO will always do the best they can in these circumstances. The problem is that unless they manage to reincarnate Jean Dixon and can predict these things no amount of training and planning can negate the headstart an active shooter has.

If any one needs to be second guessed, and third and fourth guessed it is the mealy mouthed morons that campaign on empty promises of "making a difference" and then selling their vote to the highest bidder. Stop putting officers under the microscope for percieved failures in response to mass murderers. Police officers do plenty of wrongs on a daily basis. This instance is not one of them. Focus on the enablers of the VT murders, politicians.

 

[LawBot5000]

There are already personnel on the scene at every shooting. The question is whether you will arm them or force them to wait for more specialized personnel. What some see as a spectrum that starts at patrolman and goes up to SWAT and then military, I see as starting at the victim.

Forcing victims to wait for police makes no more sense than forcing the police to wait for SWAT. The response lag is what is getting people killed. It doesnt take an armored division to stop someone like Cho. All it takes is one bullet from an ordinary gun.

 

[Lucky]

uess he hasn't bothered to look at the doors. Maybe he's built like the Hulk and could have busted it with one kick. Nah.

...OR you see the students hopping out windows where the gunshots are coming from, where a desperate teacher blockading the door with his body.

Nah, too logical. Those were magic 1-way breaches, people can only get out them, and as soon as conversation comes up about entry, they magically cease to exist altogether.

 

[TallPine]

...OR you see the students hopping out windows where the gunshots are coming from, where a desperate teacher blockading the door with his body.

Nah, too logical. Those were magic 1-way breaches, people can only get out them, and as soon as conversation comes up about entry, they magically cease to exist altogether.

IIRC, the kids were jumping out of second story windows. The last time I saw one, cop cars don't carry extension ladders on the roof. I guess if the cops were wearing their PF Flyers then maybe they could run up the side of a stone wall

There are a lot of reasons to criticize cops but I'm not sure that this is one of them.

 

[Car Knocker]

I guess if the cops were wearing their PF Flyers then maybe they could run up the side of a stone wall

Where's the Mall Ninja wall-climbing boots when you need them?

 

[Lucky]

Or maybe worse - it's a conspiracy! It's so clear, there were no students jumping out of windows, because as we've already read the whole building was completely reinforced with steel, and no human could force entry or exit through such an impenetrable Goliath. Maybe it was black helicopters dropping them.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with reality over the specious speculations offered. IOW it was possible for motivated humans to enter or exit through windows.

There are a lot of reasons to criticize cops

No, there really aren't, aside from certain notorious districts and mouthy police Chiefs. There are ump told reasons to criticize LEGISLATORS. The Mouthy police Chiefs get on TV and spread propaganda about only police and the military needing guns, at the behest of the sneaky legislators. When people start believing that police FAILED to RESCUE them, it's simply proving that they don't understand that IS NOT THE POLICE'S JOB, that they've been lied to, in order to trick them into surrendering their weapons.

IOW there are lots of reasons to disbelieve and criticize politically motivated legislators and high ranking police officials, when they tell you they'll protect you.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Pick one side of the locking mechanism. Put a magazine into it. Bet it'll be a lot looser.

Time elapsed: Under 10 seconds."

sounds good
you got a team assigned to taking care of the folks onnthe other side of ther door you hit right? nasty thing a round after it bounces off stone


and this one is priceless
"Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with reality over the specious speculations offered. IOW it was possible for motivated humans to enter or exit through windows."

the characterization of observation from people who have been in that building as "specious speculation" by someone attending college in another country gives an old man a chuckle.brings back memories of my own youth for once upon a time i too did in fact know everything.

 

[Coronach]

Pick one side of the locking mechanism. Put a magazine into it. Bet it'll be a lot looser.

Time elapsed: Under 10 seconds.

This gets my vote for "worst idea of the year", at least thus far, for reasons that should be readily apparent if anyone with a modicum of firearms knowledge thinks about it for a moment. If one still neads a hint, I'll provide the terms:

Backstop
Overpenetration
Collateral Damage
Gunshot Wounds
Liability

Getting the picture? If not:

Panicked People
Barred Exit
Proximity

Monday morning quarterbacking of police response to insane situations serves no purpose. LEO train to respond to incidents that have happened in the past. They use these tools to respond to incidents that occur in the future.

Well, they serve to make people with preconcieved notions feel better.

What I think we're running up against here is the limit of what is possible, response wise. The cops were there fast. But because Cho took a fairly extraordinary precaution (barring the doors, and possibly selecting the building based upon its construction), they were delayed. Even then, it was not an overly long delay (sometimes you can't even get a unit to scene in under 10 minutes)- and 32 people still died.

What I get out of this is that, while rapid police response is all well and good, it ain't enough, and never can or will be enough.

The problem being no two incidents are the same. Each has different elements that contribute to uncertainty. LEO train for as many broad scenarios as they can. Many train hard and at personal expense because they enjoy it. The training and planning for bizarre responses is the frosting that keeps the cake part of the job from becoming boring. LEO will always do the best they can in these circumstances. The problem is that unless they manage to reincarnate Jean Dixon and can predict these things no amount of training and planning can negate the headstart an active shooter has.

Bingo.

If any one needs to be second guessed, and third and fourth guessed it is the mealy mouthed morons that campaign on empty promises of "making a difference" and then selling their vote to the highest bidder.

Hear, hear!

Stop putting officers under the microscope for percieved failures in response to mass murderers. Police officers do plenty of wrongs on a daily basis. This instance is not one of them. Focus on the enablers of the VT murders, politicians.

I'm all for putting officers under the microscope, provided a rational, realistic assessment is used. We will learn:

If they screwed up.

How to do it better next time.

What needs to be changed.

What makes my brain itch is when the police response is held up as the problem, when clearly something else was to blame, because not only does LE get an undeserved black eye, but you're not addressing the real problem, which means it will happen again.

Mike

 

[yokel]

A pertinent article that was published recently in the WP:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/26/AR2007042602558.html

Police Describe Struggle to Enter Hall at Va. Tech
With Doors Chained, Access Took 5 Minutes
By Jerry MarkonWashington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 27, 2007; Page B01
BLACKSBURG, Va., April 26 -- Police officers desperately shot at the chains that Seung Hui Cho had used to lock the entrances to Norris Hall at Virginia Tech before they shot away a deadbolt on a side door and used bolt cutters to enter the building, authorities said Thursday.
State police released details of what officers did during the five minutes it took them to enter the building in which Cho killed 30 people April 16
Arriving at Norris three minutes after a 911 call at 9:32 a.m., the first team of four to five officers found that the building's thick wooden doors had been chained shut. They shot at the chains but couldn't break them, so they ran to a locked side door. Shooting away the deadbolt, they entered the building through a laboratory, said Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller.
The officers then paused for an unknown period to plan their strategy. "You can't just rush into a building. You have to have a game plan," Geller said. "They didn't know what they were up against, whether it was more than one gunman, part of an ambush, if there were hostages. They literally had to get into position."
As they ran to the second floor, the officers heard the final gunshot -- Cho's self-inflicted wound to the head. A second team, meanwhile, which included the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg police chiefs, was frantically trying to breach a second door. An officer ran to get bolt cutters, quickly returned with them, and the team was in. But it was too late.
The response by police and university officials will be among the focuses of an independent commission investigating the deadliest shooting by an individual in U.S. history. The Norris Hall attack came more than two hours after Cho, 23, had shot and killed his first two victims, freshman Emily Hilscher and resident adviser Ryan Clark, at the West Ambler Johnston dormitory. Thirty-three people died in all, including the gunman, and as many as 29 were injured. Cho's rampage at Norris took nine minutes.
Law enforcement officials reiterated Thursday that they have found no explanation for Cho's actions and no connections between him and either Hilscher or Clark that would explain his decision to start his attack at the dorm. Cho was standing outside when Hilscher returned to the dorm about 7:15 a.m. But he did not follow Hilscher upstairs and is believed to have entered the building through a different door, according to law enforcement sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing.
"There is no evidence that he picked those first two victims, particularly the first female victim, for any particular reason other than that it was simply just random," said a person familiar with the investigation. That source believes the dorm shooting was an effort to divert law enforcement officers from Cho's attack at Norris Hall.
The police reaction to the chaos at Norris was "a remarkable response time," Geller said. "That's a lot of activity in five minutes, for them to try to breach one door, get to a second door, get inside and get into tactical position to move to the second floor."
The response won positive initial reviews Thursday from experts on police tactics, though they said they needed more details to fully assess the performance of the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg officers.
"It's pretty clear if they are shooting at the chains that this is a group of officers who desperately wanted to get in," said Maj. Steve Ijames of the Springfield, Mo., police, who teaches a class on rapid deployment to critical incidents for the International Association of Chiefs of Police.
He said police are taught that "you want to move as quickly as you can to the threat, but you have to do that in as organized and structured a fashion as you possibly can in the middle of chaos. That does include a quick read of 'You go here, you watch behind us, you do this, you know the building.' "
Greg Meyer, a retired Los Angeles police captain who is now a consultant on police tactical issues, said it would have made no sense for officers to "run willy-nilly" into Norris, no matter how desperate the situation. "The last thing you want is police officers running around in a disorganized fashion," he said. "They'll end up shooting each other."

 

[ilbob]

I guess we could put an explosive breaching kit into every squad car...Naw..then the same people who are saying the response was too slow would say the police are being militarized.

I think it would be expensive to do this and probably unnecessary. Plus, the extra training time required to teach every patrol officer to be familiar with explosives is probably not practical. Sort of like giving every patrol officer an automatic weapon. Without proper training and practice, it is not improving anything, and there is only so much training and practice that is practical.

A sturdy pry bar and bolt cutters in the trunk of every squad car might make some sense though.

I am in favor of putting what happened under a microscope to learn what could be done better next time (because there will be a next time), but it should not be a search for a scapegoat. The responsible party killed himself. No one else is to blame, other than maybe those who decided to make VT an unarmed victim zone for strictly political reasons.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I think we've all missed the point here: IT'S THE FIRE MARSHAL'S FAULT!

Everybody knows the fire marshal has regulations prohibiting the locking of doors to prevent egress in case of an emergency. We learned that from the big fire at the Tyson chicken processing plant a few years ago. So if the campus fire marshal had been doing his job, he wouldn't have allowed the kid to chain the doors shut, the police could have entered more expeditiously, and the body count would have been much lower.

SACK THE FIRE MARSHAL!

 

[gc70]

From shots fired to police arrival: 3 minutes.
From police arrival to shooter dead: 6 minutes.

Sounds pretty quick to me, but it still proves that the police can't protect you until they get to you. And even 9 minutes proved too long for 32 people at VT.

 

[Deanimator]

Pick one side of the locking mechanism. Put a magazine into it. Bet it'll be a lot looser.

Time elapsed: Under 10 seconds.

I'm a well known "cop basher", but fact trumps myth every time.

In the last couple of weeks, the "Myth Busters" show put the "shoot the lock out" cliche to the test. If I remember correctly, NO handgun was effective, either with padlocks or deadbolts. It took a long gun to defeat the locks.

Of course neither that, nor your recommended course of action is relevant when the doors are chained and padlocked FROM THE INSIDE.

Some of us may differ on whether individual departments and officers are conscientious in their duty to "protect" society AS A WHOLE. There's simply NO question as to whether police can either transport into the immediate vicinity of a mass murderer like Captain Kirk, OR whether they can be equipped and trained for EVERY contingency. There's even LESS question that when it comes time to show your hand, YOU are the only person who's going to protect you, no matter HOW much the police WANT to.

As I said previously, regardless of all of the best intentions in the world, if you're counting on the police to protect YOU as an INDIVIDUAL, from ANYTHING, especially someone like Cho Seung Hui, you might as well shoot yourself.

 

[yokel]

AP:
"You don't have time to wait," said Aaron Cohen, president of IMS Security of Los Angeles, who has trained SWAT teams around the country since 2003. "You don't have time to pre-plan a response. Even if you have a few guys, you go."

WP:
Meyer, a retired Los Angeles police captain who is now a consultant on police tactical issues, said it would have made no sense for officers to "run willy-nilly" into Norris, no matter how desperate the situation. "The last thing you want is police officers running around in a disorganized fashion," he said. "They'll end up shooting each other."

So which is it, rush headlong into danger or deliberate first

I am in favor of putting what happened under a microscope to learn what could be done better next time (because there will be a next time), but it should not be a search for a scapegoat.

Unless the commission appointed by Gov. Kaine is somehow granted subpoena power, i'm not too sanguine about getting a thorough performance appraisal.

 

[F4GIB]

Three minutes has got to be record response time to the location and nine minutes to get a team of four armed officers to the crime scene is superb response.

On my campus, given that "security" is provided by students and fat old persons (yes, that seems to be a job requirement) - all unarmed, the police response would take longer and have to build up. You might get one car (and one officer) outside the campus security office in 3 minutes on a lucky day. At least 1 minute for a security officer to join him and direct him to the on campus location. Add 30 seconds for the officer to radio in directions for others. Second car arrives now. That's 5 minutes and 2 officers on the scene. Killer puts gun back in backpack and runs screaming from the building with dozens of others and blends into giant crowd of onlookers. More cars arrive, more police (first units from suburbs which are closer than downtown PD headquarters), and first 4 man team enters the building at T plus 7 minutes. They arrive at crime scene (on second floor) at T plus 14. First paramedics enter first floor behind first 5 SWAT officer ant this time. All victims bleed out and die before aid reaches them. Murderer walks away to the off campus coffee shop.

Very fast work under the circumstances but wholly inadequate to save anyone from being shot.

As the Israelis have learned, counterforce that isn't ON SCENE before the incident might as well be on the moon.

 

[Coronach]

So which is it, rush headlong into danger or deliberate first

Neither. There is a third way; it is called 'having a plan first and taking a few seconds to team up'. We're not talking 'wait until SWAT gets there', just long enough to make sure that you get everyone on the same page and go.

Unless the commission appointed by Gov. Kaine is somehow granted subpoena power, i'm not too sanguine about getting a thorough performance appraisal.

Why? What experience do you have with after-action evaluations? In my experience they are thorough and brutally honest.

Mike

 

[JohnBT]

In a word, I read it in the paper - if they can't subpoena and can't get the murderer's psych records they might not be able to come up with much. Stay tuned for further politicking and manuevering as the panel gets organized.

John