Va Tech: Police Response article

[TheOld Man]

From all that I have seen, under the circumstances THE POLICE DID A DAM FINE JOB. In my opinion, the silliness of a Gun Free Zone was a major factor in the number of deaths. Also, it would appear that Cho should not have been able to buy a gun, mainly for the reason that there are no gun shops in the rubber room he should been locked up in.

 

[Lucky]

the characterization of observation from people who have been in that building as "specious speculation" by someone attending college in another country gives an old man a chuckle.brings back memories of my own youth for once upon a time i too did in fact know everything.

Exactly, that's you being Specious (ie FOS), by misrepresenting speculations into observations. No-one who actually knew said the windows were narrow or steel-reinforced or anything. Go ahead and (Re?-) read the thread, then edit your post. Meanwhile reality showed people got through windows just fine. Specious speculations vs. reality.

 

[atblis]

Norriss

Norris hall is a bit of an odd building. I don't believe you really have a straight shot at any of the doors. one of them is in an outdoor hallway that runs through the middle of the building. If I remember correctly the door facing what I guess is technically the front of the building may have steps leading up to them. There's another side door that I've never used so I don't know where it actually goes.

I don't remember exactly for Norris, but windows are often permanently fixed shut, even if they were openeable at some point. THe window frames are often metal, rather heavy duty (made before everything became cheap disposable crap).

I am sure you could find an easy way in, but that might take you ohhh I dunno five or six minutes perhaps?

 

[Lucky]

From all that I have seen, under the circumstances THE POLICE DID A DAM FINE JOB.

Yes, if one accepts their job to be responding to crimes after the victims are victimized, investigate the crime, apprehend suspects, bring them before justice... Once you start believing in ubermensch of hollywood fame, and the polcie depts. own propaganda that they 'prevent crime' and should have a monopoly on the use of force in society, then you're in that catch 22.

So until the police departments officially come out and say, "We Cannot Protect You. We Should Not Have A Monopoly On The Use Of Force.", until they say that they ARE responsible to protect everyone, and everytime disarmed peoples die it IS the police's fault. They are breaking the social contract, freedoms were taken, and in exchange security must be delivered. Since they are unable to do that they should demand the legislators stop putting unreasonable demands on them.

Instead they request more funding and more powers from said legislators. Things cannot get better until police themselves admit they are incapable of doing the impossible task assigned to them.

...Or we could become Orwellian Britain, with cameras everywhere watching everyone all the time, and secret police on every corner ready to respond to every offence.

Take your pick, those are the ONLY choices.

 

[ilbob]

You never know. Instead of providing political cover for the politicians (the most likely reason to have such a commission), it might actually be an honest look at what happened.

Even if the whole thing is looked at in a completely honest and open way, what is the best you could expect of it?

It seems to me this is what happened.

- crazy person kills two people at random
- 2 hours later, same crazy person locks doors of college building and starts shooting people at random
- police respond within a few minutes
- crazy person kills self to avoid being taken alive by police when it becomes clear they will be on him shortly

Lesson to be learned. There is no defense against this kind of attack. You can only react to it.

Some will claim that "something" should have been done by "someone" about the crazy person. I bet if you looked hard enough, you could find hundreds or even thousands of people on campus and nearby that are not emotionally well balanced. Is the "something" you want done to lock them all up?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

john i'm gonna go out on a limb and say folks might let the records be released a type of atonement for them. unless the land sharks try yo sue his folks then all bets are off

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and lucky?

try post 16 its from a VT alumnus and he posted a link to a picture and everything! but thanks for really proving my point. way back in the day it was common to make ground floor windows hard to get into. thats why you only find reports of folks jumping from second floor. and i know its a drag but I'm in VA been to VT didn't remember exact layout of windows till john was kind enough to provide the nifty picture which i even opened to look at. the darnedest things happen in my old age when experience has shown me, painfully that there exists a chance i might not know everything like i did when i was 20

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and lucky?

dup

 

[Lucky]

I don't even know why you insist on pressing this issue, it's really quite irrelevant once you grasp the main issue, that of imposed dependency on gov't protection. Once you recognize that fraud, the amount of time it takes civil servants to perform subsidiary tasks is inconsequential.

But for some reason you want people to believe that these windows, which look identical (actually wider on the ground floor) are actually very different. The 2nd floor windows are able to be forced in an extreme hurry, while the ground floor is bomb-proof. Even though they are cleverly and expensively disguised to appear the same, for some secret reason. Built during the Great Depression, they went to elaborate expenses to somehow protect classrooms that at the time would contain very little worth stealing, in a sparsely-populated rural area which would have a miniscule theft rate to begin with. And all this at a time when building fires are one of the most deadly urban scenarios (still are), they're going to make classrooms which are impossible to get out of if a fire is in the hallway. This is your suggestion?

Look at those titanium frames and Star-Trek transparent aluminum windows, cleverly camouflaged to appear as quaint wood frames and single-pane glass.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

ahhh

so you found it? the post where john. a vt alumnus , offers his opinion.with the nifty picture . about the praticality of entering those windows? the opinion of the guys who's been there thats "specious" when compared with your super duper internet deductive powere beaming south across the border 15oo miles. fueled by the forces of your "cop issues" thanks my mistake is apparent to us all now john obviously should defer to you. he probably will hes old too way past the ability to know everything. enjoy it you to will lose your super powers when you leave college.

 

[Travis McGee]

Turning off the flames for a moment, just trying to learn and see what could be done better in the future....

The doors I've seen look like very heavy duty old style church or bank doors. If they were chained shut from inside, and had no ready vehicle approach, those doors are not going to be opened easily or quickly without specialized tools. If they could be partly opened before the chains went taut, perhaps bolt cutters could reach in to atack the chains. Do cops carry long handled bolt cutters in their trunks? Maybe they should. I know if every potentially useful tool was in a cop's trunk, they'd be full and weigh a ton. So the cops will need to work closely with the custodians and the paramedics on methods of breeching doors.

The windows on the ground floor appear to me to be the easiest way in. The entry cops need to be quicker to think outside the box ("open the doors no matter how long it takes") and be ready to demolish the windows to get inside. SWAT guys train for this all the time, they even have a term "break and rake," meaning using a two man team with a sledge hammer and a long breaking bar to bust out the windows and clear an opening for the entry teams to go in. If the first floor windows are up off the ground a bit you need to drive a vehicle right up under and stand on the roof, use ladders, or even "boost" one another on shoulders etc. The main point is, windows can be used for a fast entry, with minimum tools, but the mindset must already be there to destroy the windows and go in.

All that said, no cops outside of a locked building can get inside in the few minutes a massacre can occur. Only armed students or profs can stop a shooter in that time frame. Even a cautious school could vet certain qualified profs to keep weapons in pistol vaults with electronic keypads. Even a few profs on a floor with fast access to a pistol could give a margin of safety that cops on the outside can never provide.

 

[JohnBT]

I agree. If they'd broken out a window with their bare hands, or run to the car for a tire iron, they could have climbed in (one at a time?) and cut the 5 minutes they spent getting through that door to what, 2, 3 or minutes...maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe the Governor's panel will have somebody try it against the clock. Maybe they'll try driving a cruiser through those double doors to see if there was room for enough of a running start. I'm not holding my breath, but they could.

John

P.S. - "to bust out the windows and clear an opening for the entry teams to go in"

Entry teams? Windows? "WHAT, WHY DIDN'T THEY SEND IN ONE GUY? WHY'D THEY WAIT?" is what they'd hear, etc., etc., etc. You know you can't win.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

anyone here ever try a shot gun on chains? never done it myself whats the result ?

 

[RNB65]

anyone here ever try a shot gun on chains? never done it myself whats the result ?

Soft lead buckshot thru a thick door onto a hardened steel chain isn't going to get you very far. You'd have better luck shooting at the door hinges. Shotguns are powerful weapons, but some folks seem to have serious misconceptions about their capabilities.

Why, just the sound of a police shotgun being racked should have made those chains just fall off the door in mortal fear!

 

[K-Romulus]

Lewis Machine and Tool (AKA "LMT") sells a "rebar cutter" that attaches to the AR15 flash hider.

http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=129&cid=11&session=fc6d2302c87eea15a540464427b61693

It looks like a weird compensator with a "U-cut" that allows you to place it against something like a chain or lock hasp. You fire one 5.56 round and the rebar cutter is designed to channel the force of the bullet to smash the rebar/chain/lock, but safely dissipate the pressure.

A guy on AR15.com (LEO, fwiw) tested his out and showed that it really worked.

 

[Robo_Railer]

Some will claim that "something" should have been done by "someone" about the crazy person. I bet if you looked hard enough, you could find hundreds or even thousands of people on campus and nearby that are not emotionally well balanced. Is the "something" you want done to lock them all up?

Well, yes, but . . .
I don't want to get off the topic, but this is worth a read:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009977
"That is not to say that anyone who pens violence-laden poetry or lets slip the occasional hostile remark should be protectively incarcerated. But when the level of threat rises to college freshmen and faculty prophesying accurately, perhaps we should err on the side of public safety rather than protect individual liberty at all costs." (Dr. Jonathan Kellerman, clinical professor of pediatrics and psychology at USC's Keck School of Medicine.)
Then he or she can't use a gun, knife, motor vehicle, gas grille propane tanks, or anything else to harm anyone else.

Back on topic, a lot of places are going to have to get over the "it couldn't happen here" mindset, and do some planning. The North Carolina Attorney General's Office, North Carolina Department of Public Instruction, and other agencies teamed up and produced Critical Incident Response Kits for schools.
During the LE course I took last year, we saw the video that goes with the CIRK, showing the Rapid Deployment by the first four officers to arrive. There may be people in each school or community who say things like "No! We mustn't scare the children," but LE is going to have to do some drills on all the schools in their jurisdiction. Nights, weekends, during vacation time, whatever it takes to identify skinny windows and other impediments before there's a problem.

 

[Coronach]

I agree. If they'd broken out a window with their bare hands, or run to the car for a tire iron, they could have climbed in (one at a time?) and cut the 5 minutes they spent getting through that door to what, 2, 3 or minutes...maybe. Maybe not.

And all that will prove is that if you know the exact scenario ahead of time and if you can sort out exactly what needs to be done in advance and if you have the luxury of doing all of this sitting around a conference room table, with everyone within earshot and without shots ringing out constantly and all the while knowing exactly what resources you have and where you have them, you might be able to do it all slightly faster.

And this would tell us what? Real life is kinda like shooting a IDPA stage blind...you never know what's gonna pop up next. If you know the stage in advance, you can (who knew?) perform better.

Mike

PS Yes, I do believe that is, actually, your point. I'm just making it clear for everyone else.

 

[JohnBT]

You know, the fastest entry would have been for 2 big cops to take 1 little cop and throw him (or her) through the first window they came to. What do you think, head first of feet first? Maybe they could've found a motorcycle cop wearing a helmet and leather jacket to toss into the building.

John

 

[yokel]

Why? What experience do you have with after-action evaluations? In my experience they are thorough and brutally honest.

The truth of the matter is that the committee would be toothless sans subpoena power.

Suppose, for instance, that Cho's relatives decide not to cooperate?