Vehicle Attacks

westernrover

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New Year's Day on Bourbon street was just the latest. One that always stands out in my mind was the 1980 attack by Ms. Ford who drove a Lincoln through Reno and killed six, injuring 23 others on Thanksgiving Day.. The 2016 Bastille Day attack in Nice was one of the worst in that 84 people were killed by one truck. More recently, it was only a few weeks ago that a vehicle attack happened at a Christmas market in Germany resulting in five deaths and 200 injuries. That followed another attack in 2016 where a vehicle driver killed 12 and injured 56 people at a Christmas market in Berlin. Security measures implemented since that attack did not stop the one a few weeks ago. Much has already been made of the failure of vehicle barrier implementation on Bourbon street. The fact is that many large gatherings remain insecure from vehicle attacks.

Chadd Wright of 3 of 7 Project offered a solution in one of his recent "Truck Talks." He advised not going to large gatherings. It seems common-sense to me, but Chadd seemed to think it wouldn't be popular. I don't have any sympathy for fat people that want to go to big pro sports events, but I can empathize with those who might feel that not gathering is a concession to the evil doers. On the other hand, I would have to ask: is the practice of concealed carry a concession to the evil doers?

Paul Harrel claimed to have defended his wife from a vehicle attack. He stopped a a belligerent drunk driver at a campground that had driven through their campfire and was heading toward Paul's truck behind which was his wife. Paul shot the driver six times with an AR-15. The driver, in this case, may or may not have had a malicious intention to kill anyone, but was drunk and took foolish actions that demanded he be stopped from doing so regardless of his intentions. Nobody is declaring open season on drunk drivers that aren't immediately posing a lethal and unavoidable threat that would cause imminent death, great bodily harm, or serious bodily injury to themselves or others if they were not stopped. It raises the question though, is gunfire effective at stopping drivers and th4e vehicles they are driving? At the risk of starting at stupid "caliber war", is 9x19 effective?

Here is the truck from the Bastille Day attack:
france_759.jpg


Paul did some inventive tests on various cartridges firing bullets through windshields and also on using different parts of vehicles as cover. Vehicle parts preventing sufficient penetration, interfering with bullet expansion, and causing deflection of the bullet's path are substantial concerns, but hitting the driver effectively in a moving vehicle would be sufficiently hard in and of itself. Michael Platt was sitting in a stopped car (one or the other) when anyone fired at him, and yet it took 70 shots and 12 hits to stop him. The Bastille Day attacker was shot at 54 times and took 18 hits from the police. We can't say that all 18 hits were required to stop him, but it's fair to say that those hits took too long to make.

Stopping vehicle attacks in general is outside the scope of this discussion. That's an issue for law enforcement and security personnel. As individuals, the pertinent questions are: how can we avoid being attacked with a vehicle, and if we're caught in a vehicle attack, what can we do to defend ourselves? I'm particularly interested in defense against intentional mass homicidal attacks on pedestrians. If a person were to find themselves the victim of a vehicle attack like that man who was hit while riding his bicycle in Dana Point by a driver who then got out of his car and stabbed the bicyclist also in February of 2023, I don't know how they could be expected to do much without any warning.
 
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New Year's Day on Bourbon street was just the latest. One that always stands out in my mind was the 1980 attack by Ms. Ford who drove a Lincoln through Reno and killed six, injuring 23 others on Thanksgiving Day.. The 2016 Bastille Day attack in Nice was one of the worst in that 84 people were killed by one truck. More recently, it was only a few weeks ago that a vehicle attack happened at a Christmas market in Germany resulting in five deaths and 200 injuries. That followed another attack in 2016 where a vehicle driver killed 12 and injured 56 people at a Christmas market in Berlin. Security measures implemented since that attack did not stop the one a few weeks ago. Much has already been made of the failure of vehicle barrier implementation on Bourbon street. The fact is that many large gatherings remain insecure from vehicle attacks.

Chadd Wright of 3 of 7 Project offered a solution in one of his recent "Truck Talks." He advised not going to large gatherings. It seems common-sense to me, but Chadd seemed to think it wouldn't be popular. I don't have any sympathy for fat people that want to go to big pro sports events, but I can empathize with those who might feel that not gathering is a concession to the evil doers. On the other hand, I would have to ask: is the practice of concealed carry a concession to the evil doers?

Paul Harrel claimed to have defended his wife from a vehicle attack. He stopped a a belligerent drunk driver at a campground that had driven through their campfire and was heading toward Paul's truck behind which was his wife. Paul shot the driver six times with an AR-15. The driver, in this case, may or may not have had a malicious intention to kill anyone, but was drunk and took foolish actions that demanded he be stopped from doing so regardless of his intentions. Nobody is declaring open season on drunk drivers that aren't immediately posing a lethal and unavoidable threat that would cause imminent death, great bodily harm, or serious bodily injury to themselves or others if they were not stopped. It raises the question though, is gunfire effective at stopping drivers and th4e vehicles they are driving? At the risk of starting at stupid "caliber war", is 9x19 effective?

Here is the truck from the Bastille Day attack: https://indianexpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/france_759.jpg

Paul did some inventive tests on various cartridges firing bullets through windshields and also on using different parts of vehicles as cover. Vehicle parts preventing sufficient penetration, interfering with bullet expansion, and causing deflection of the bullet's path are substantial concerns, but hitting the driver effectively in a moving vehicle would be sufficiently hard in and of itself. Michael Platt was sitting in a stopped car (one or the other) when anyone fired at him, and yet it took 70 shots and 12 hits to stop him. The Bastille Day attacker was shot at 54 times and took 18 hits from the police. We can't say that all 18 hits were required to stop him, but it's fair to say that those hits took too long to make.

Stopping vehicle attacks in general is outside the scope of this discussion. That's an issue for law enforcement and security personnel. As individuals, the pertinent questions are: how can we avoid being attacked with a vehicle, and if we're caught in a vehicle attack, what can we do to defend ourselves? I'm particularly interested in defense against intentional mass homicidal attacks on pedestrians. If a person were to find themselves the victim of a vehicle attack like that man who was hit while riding his bicycle in Dana Point by a driver who then got out of his car and stabbed the bicyclist also in February of 2023, I don't know how they could be expected to do much without any warning.
I doubt my ability to reliably stop such an attack with a handgun. Even if I am carrying a cartridge which is capable of it, and even if I can manage the fairly tricky shot under pressure, there still is momentum to deal with...

I think about the scenario when walking around - especially in the sort of narrow alley/walkway places where so many of these attacks occur - and the best thing I can come up with is A) stay aware, B) don't be shocked into inactivity when it happens, and C) keep an eye out for store entrances and immovable objects.
 
Unless one is carrying an M72 LAW, a 90mm recoilless rifle, an RPG of Javelin there is no sense in talking about stopping a vehicle attack. We aren't going to discuss stopping a vehicle with commonly carried firearms.

If the discussion stays focused on avoidance and escape this thread can stay open.
 
Honestly, it would take me a LOT longer to recognize a vehicle as a threat than a normal weapon.

If a car is moving toward you, you have to assess if they are driving toward you on purpose or not...and that will probably eat up all of your reaction time. Too many times cars drive straight toward people or objects because the driver is looking at texts or other activities.

If you are in a situation such as this and are concerned about it (I would be) then go to a Stage Rally race or 2. Better yet, volunteer. You can have cars driving at 100+ mph on dirt or gravel roads in your direction with no guardrails or barriers. They are on the edge of control, and sometimes out of control. Some rallies you will get to have this experience 200+ times in a day. You get pretty good at noticing vehicle movements and getting a large object (a tree >16 inches is a good start :) ) between you and the threat. I find myself doing it automatically when in a downtown area and a car seems a little reckless or "off". Statues, alleys, anything that blocks you or gives you one more second of reaction time will help. As a bonus, these things will also provide cover for other threats.
 
I thought this giant hand sculpture in front of the entrance to a mall in Santa Rosa was interesting:

CASROhand_rickdusine.jpg


It wouldn't stop the Blue's Brothers though because there was enough space to drive around it. There were some bollards across the entrance also.
 
Unless one is carrying an M72 LAW, a 90mm recoilless rifle, an RPG of Javelin there is no sense in talking about stopping a vehicle attack. We aren't going to discuss stopping a vehicle with commonly carried firearms.

If the discussion stays focused on avoidance and escape this thread can stay open.
I'm not so sure. None of those things were used to stop the attack on Bourbon Street, the attack in Nice, or the one in Paul Harrel's account.
 
I'm not so sure. None of those things were used to stop the attack on Bourbon Street, the attack in Nice, or the one in Paul Harrel's account.
What part of we aren't going to discuss stopping vehicles with commonly carried firearms here don't you understand?

Do you carry a rifle to street events? No you don't. The only rifles present will be in the hands of law enforcement. I'm also not going to let the "truck gun" discussion get started. We've been down both of those roads many times in the past. There is nothing to be gained be rehashing those conversations.
 
What part of we aren't going to discuss stopping vehicles with commonly carried firearms here don't you understand?

Do you carry a rifle to street events? No you don't. The only rifles present will be in the hands of law enforcement. I'm also not going to let the "truck gun" discussion get started. We've been down both of those roads many times in the past. There is nothing to be gained be rehashing those conversations.
Truck gun? Is that used in the way that the term elephant gun is used to hunt elephants? Or is it the more literal sense where it just shoots trucks at things. Either way it sounds pretty effective at stopping a truck. I would hate to feel the recoil of either of those though, especially in a pocket gun.

I’ll go stand in the corner now. Couldn’t resist.
 
Unless one is carrying an M72 LAW, a 90mm recoilless rifle, an RPG of Javelin there is no sense in talking about stopping a vehicle attack. We aren't going to discuss stopping a vehicle with commonly carried firearms.

If the discussion stays focused on avoidance and escape this thread can stay open.
Agreed. If would be nearly impossible to stop a threat like that. That's why barricaded are so important.

What really scares me is terrorism in the form of weaponized drones.
 
Unless one is carrying an M72 LAW, a 90mm recoilless rifle, an RPG of Javelin there is no sense in talking about stopping a vehicle attack. We aren't going to discuss stopping a vehicle with commonly carried firearms.
Right. Stopping the vehicle is virtually impossible. Stopping the driver might be possible, but at great risk to yourself. In the Nice attack, two people tried to gain access to the cab of the truck to stop the driver. Neither was successful. If either one had had a sidearm, the attack might have been stopped sooner. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack
 
If the discussion stays focused on avoidance and escape this thread can stay open.
I'm waiting for someone to come along and post about how they "avoid" going to public events and crowds. Or maybe bragging about how they live in a "safe" city making them somewhat immune to vehicle attacks. Then someone else can respond that there's no such thing as "safe" cities anymore because "bad guys are mobile." 😆
28710.jpeg

That's our son-in-law's and daughter's house in Pocatello, Idaho. The pickup truck that jumped the curb, went across the front yard, through the garage door and half-way into the garage last spring belonged to a teenaged boy that was running late getting back to school after lunch. If the truck had gone just a couple of more feet into the garage, it would have taken out a support beam, and the teenaged boy and his two buddies might have ended up with part of the upstairs bedroom sitting in their laps! o_O
I guess that's a bit off topic though when the subject is "avoidance" of vehicle attacks. I mean, a teenaged kid driving too fast and missing a corner isn't exactly an intentional attack. Besides, I pulled plenty of stupid stunts when I was a teenager myself.
As a matter of fact, now that I'm getting on in years, "avoidance" of going to places where I might be at risk of being ran over by a motor vehicle is becoming less and less possible - because I have more and more places I have to go to in town. AND I'm slower than I used to be. So, getting out of the way, "escaping" a charging or out-of-control motor vehicle isn't as likely for me either. :confused:
 
Facing a vehicle "attack" was one of my life-changing defensive experiences.

My young family (Mrs Luzyfuerza plus four little children) and I were seated in a booth at a burger joint for lunch. I watched, frozen in place, as a driverless pickup careened downhill, through an intersection, literally headed straight for our booth.

The pickup hit a masonry halfwall HARD (old sturdy building) right behind our booth. But couldn't penetrate it. After the impact, we got up to move, grateful for the halfwall.

But my heart raced when I considered what could have happened had the impact broken the 10 foot-tall plate glass window that rested on the halfwall, and the injuries my little ones would have experienced, all because I froze that day.

I learned that we freeze when we're not aware of our physical environment, AND we're not developing responses, exits, concealment, or cover for that situation. "Situational awareness" is not an end in and of itself...we have to visualize responses if (when?) something goes wrong.

The best analogy is defensive driving: "What will I do if that driver cuts into my lane." And so on. Over and over, throughout the trip.

I swore to never be caught so unprepared to protect myself or my family again. Am I perfect at it? Not a chance. But that sensation of being frozen in place remains fresh in my mind 35 years later, and my drive to avoid experiencing it even one more time is powerful.
 
If someone has their foot mashed down on the accelerator even a brain shot has a good likelihood of not stopping the vehicle. It's going to keep on going until it runs into something it can't go through.

Then there's the issue of handgun bullets being highly unpredictable going through car glass.

If I see what looks like a vehicle attack coming in my direction I'm not shooting, I'm running as far as I can and looking for cover in case it explodes.
 
Facing a vehicle "attack" was one of my life-changing defensive experiences.

My young family (Mrs Luzyfuerza plus four little children) and I were seated in a booth at a burger joint for lunch. I watched, frozen in place, as a driverless pickup careened downhill, through an intersection, literally headed straight for our booth.

The pickup hit a masonry halfwall HARD (old sturdy building) right behind our booth. But couldn't penetrate it. After the impact, we got up to move, grateful for the halfwall.

But my heart raced when I considered what could have happened had the impact broken the 10 foot-tall plate glass window that rested on the halfwall, and the injuries my little ones would have experienced, all because I froze that day.

I learned that we freeze when we're not aware of our physical environment, AND we're not developing responses, exits, concealment, or cover for that situation. "Situational awareness" is not an end in and of itself...we have to visualize responses if (when?) something goes wrong.

The best analogy is defensive driving: "What will I do if that driver cuts into my lane." And so on. Over and over, throughout the trip.

I swore to never be caught so unprepared to protect myself or my family again. Am I perfect at it? Not a chance. But that sensation of being frozen in place remains fresh in my mind 35 years later, and my drive to avoid experiencing it even one more time is powerful.
As a side note, in my paramedic days I was shocked to discover how often folks accidentally drove into buildings. It's got nothing to do with firearms, of course, but my choice of restaurant seating takes it into account to this day.

As a separate side note, I agree completely with regard to "freezing". Perhaps the single best piece of defensive advice I have ever encountered was the idea that a fellow should train himself to expect to someday encounter life-threatening violence, so that the reaction would be not "I can't believe this is happening!" but rather "Hmm. I figured this was going to happen."
 
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Forget the sidearm. Get out of the way - run across the velocity vector, not along it.
I have seen a couple videos where the rabbit destroyed the hawk attack by simply stepping aside 6 to 8 inches when the hawk is a yard or three away.. The hawk intercept calculation is destroyed.
I avoid crowds anyway. Never liked them, and if they spin up for some reason remember the collective IQ of a rampaging crowd is effectively zero.
Situational awareness is good but difficult to maintain 100%. I usually just do a quick look around, checking for entrances, exits, something to cover behind if necessary. Only takes a few seconds.
 
The vehicle directed attack is one of the most difficult to predict
and defend against.
 
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You made me wonder whatever happened to the old man, that killed 10 and injured 70, when he hit the gas instead of the brake?


Looks like he got probation.

 
I'm waiting for someone to come along and post about how they "avoid" going to public events and crowds. Or maybe bragging about how they live in a "safe" city making them somewhat immune to vehicle attacks. Then someone else can respond that there's no such thing as "safe" cities anymore because "bad guys are mobile." 😆
View attachment 1244614
That's our son-in-law's and daughter's house in Pocatello, Idaho. The pickup truck that jumped the curb, went across the front yard, through the garage door and half-way into the garage last spring belonged to a teenaged boy that was running late getting back to school after lunch. If the truck had gone just a couple of more feet into the garage, it would have taken out a support beam, and the teenaged boy and his two buddies might have ended up with part of the upstairs bedroom sitting in their laps! o_O
I guess that's a bit off topic though when the subject is "avoidance" of vehicle attacks. I mean, a teenaged kid driving too fast and missing a corner isn't exactly an intentional attack. Besides, I pulled plenty of stupid stunts when I was a teenager myself.
As a matter of fact, now that I'm getting on in years, "avoidance" of going to places where I might be at risk of being ran over by a motor vehicle is becoming less and less possible - because I have more and more places I have to go to in town. AND I'm slower than I used to be. So, getting out of the way, "escaping" a charging or out-of-control motor vehicle isn't as likely for me either. :confused:

I never cared for houses on a corner for that exact reason. Corner houses have a greater chance of being hit by a vehicle. I grew up in suburbia and I've known that for a long time.
If for some reason I did own a corner house, I would look into either landscape boulders buried 1/2 way into the yard or decorative concrete planter boxes. A wall around the property would be best.
The goal of those barriers would be to prevent a vehicle from driving through my house.

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OP, the November 2021 Waukesha Wisconsin Christmas Parade vehicle attack should also be added to your list.

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Lately the only big outdoor event I attend is the Jeepin for a Cure (to cancer) charity event that usually has 500+ Jeeps attending. The 1st one I attended was right after the October 7th, 2023 Terrorist Attack in Israel.
Large public events are targets of opportunity to terrorists. I keep that in mind when attending large events.

2023 Jeepin for a Cure.jpg


Making a couple generalizations about the Jeep charity event. Of those 1000+ people I highly doubt I was one of the few carrying concealed.
I bet if you did a study on CCW licenses by vehicle choice: Jeep Wrangler owners vs Toyota Prius owners. That are there are far more CCW licenses among Jeep Wrangler owners.

What's that all mean, I feel far safer at Jeep event vs any other type of large public outdoor event as I know I won't be the only one carrying a firearm concealed.

I do agree you need to think about and plan about what you would do in any situation.
 
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We live off a street that had a significant S curve on a hill. It went from 4 lanes to two lanes for the curve. At the bottom of the curve, there was a housing development that had substantial stone and wood fencing along the road. Like clockwork, probably every few months, some came down the hill and S and right through the fences. If you came up the hill from the 4 lanes to two - well, a guy in a two seater, fancy dude sports car, jumped the road on to the curb, landing, straddling the curb. The car basically exploded in a ball of flame, incinerating the car and the guy with no time to do anything. My kid saw it. Later, my wife called the city to finally come and clean up the scorch marks across the road.

On that road, I saw a guy come straight at me as he screwed up the two lane to four lane transition. That was exciting. I was also in a terrible accident on the freeway, where there was a major intersection of two freeways. The traffic always backed up and came to a stop. So I was a stopped with a car in back of me. A women hit that car, blasting it into mine. I still suffer from the injuries. Dealing with lawyers, quack insurance doctors, docs who wouldn't see an accident person, etc. - another horror show.

Point being, cars are devastating. Avoidance, rather than trying to pop away with your 'roscoe'. I've taking a couple of intense fighting from or about cars courses. NO thanks!
 
I never cared for houses on a corner for that exact reason. Corner houses have a greater chance of being hit by a vehicle.
Yeah, our daughter's and son-in-law's house is even worse than that. It's not really even a "corner house" per say. If you could see an arial view of it, you'd see that it's located on sort of a 3-way corner, with one road coming down a hill straight into the front of the house - if people don't turn when coming down that hill, they're going to jump the curb, shoot across the front yard, and crash into the front of the house. Which was exactly what happened last spring.
I don't even like to park in front of our daughter's and son-in-law's house. And after that kid crashed into the garage last spring, I told them that they didn't need to leave a place in the driveway for my wife and I to park either. I told them, "I don't want my truck to be a target OR a barricade. 😁
 
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