Vehicle Attacks

What’s wrong with a discussion that allows the tactic of stopping the threat in this particular scenario?
"In this particular scenario", the threat is a moving vehicle. Shooting the driver is not a viable way to stop the threat.
Stopping intentional deadly force (to wit a suspect using a vehicle as a deadly weapon) has been done before and will be done again by the intended victim using a handgun to stop the driver of said vehicle.
I know of no accepted tatcics that involve shooting the driver of a moving vehicle. Obviously, a moving vehicle remains very dangerous, whether the driver is impaired or not.
I have had very recent training involving shooting live rounds into vehicles.
I hope that you understood at the time that the purpose was not to stop a moving vehicle that was being used as a weapn, but to defend against gunmen in a car that is not moving.

Several days ago, officers in St. Louis County, MO did fire into a suspect's vehicle. The car had crashed, and the occupant fired at the officers.

It took 87 rounds to end the encounter.

The police did not fire at the car while they were pursuing it.

Shooting at moving cars may make good screen fiction, but it is a terrible idea. We should not learn our tactics from screen fiction.
 
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Vehicle attacks will probably continue to increase so I'll plan accordingly.

Avoidance, evasion,and cover will continue to be my primary defense tactics with a firearm as a last resort in personal confrontations.

I routinely train with and carry an IFAK with the idea that in the immediate aftermath I may be prepared to help myself or others.
 
Shooting at moving cars may make good screen fiction, but it is a terrible idea. We should not learn our tactics from screen fiction.
Screen fiction? There are plenty of examples of police officers with handguns shooting at suspects in cars, using the justification that the car is moving toward them.

I only had to go back a about a month to find the last time this tactic was employed by trained police officers, just in New Orleans. It happened 12/4. Spoiler alert- the stolen car still hit a police car and a bystander's car and was found later abandoned.

I don't think it's ever worked, so it's not a good solution to the problem. But the idea that people are getting this from bad TV? They're getting it from actual police work.

 
Screen fiction? There are plenty of examples of police officers with handguns shooting at suspects in cars, using the justification that the car is moving toward them.

I only had to go back a about a month to find the last time this tactic was employed by trained police officers, just in New Orleans. It happened 12/4. Spoiler alert- the stolen car still hit a police car and a bystander's car and was found later abandoned.

I don't think it's ever worked, so it's not a good solution to the problem. But the idea that people are getting this from bad TV? They're getting it from actual police work.

You're right. It does happen and it does get discussed in police circles when the topic of deadly force comes up. A vehicle can be used as a deadly weapon justifying deadly force in defense. Not usually the most effective tactic but it happens and it isn't rare.
 
When might it ever be the most effective tactic?

One such case might be to defend another officer or victim who's is actively being attacked by a vehicle in motion. One person may already be down having been struck already. You yourself may have already been struck and unable to run. Or, there may be nowhere to run too. Can't outrun a car and if there isn't a solid barrier nearby you have to try your best to hit the driver.

Vehicle attacks aren't necessarily common but they aren't super rare either especially in domestic violence events. One jealous partner catches their significant other where they shouldn't be and suddenly it's ramming speed.

I know a female officer who's legs were crushed when the driver she pulled over put the car in reverse and tried to take her out. She didn't end up shooting but if the attack continued it would be reasonable to open fire if possible.

I think it's pretty clear to everybody that the best tactic is to get away and seek cover but that's not always going to be feasible.
 
"In this particular scenario", the threat is a moving vehicle. Shooting the driver is not a viable way to stop the threat.

I know of no accepted tatcics that involve shooting the driver of a moving vehicle.
...

When might it ever be the most effective tactic?

What do you think of Paul Harrell's claims to have stopped the threat of a man driving a pickup truck through his camp toward Paul's pickup truck which Paul's wife was behind? In essence, Paul claimed shooting a semi-automatic rifle six times at the driver was justified action to stop the driver from proceeding to drive the truck into Paul's pickup which would result in grave bodily injury or death to Paul's wife. According to witnesses, the driver of the truck had aggressively driven through the campfire, circled around and was then heading toward Paul's pickup when Paul fired his rifle. Evidently, Paul believed he could use the rifle to shoot the driver of the moving vehicle to stop the threat. A Wallowa County grand jury ruled that Harrell's actions were justified. What do you think?

 
A Wallowa County grand jury ruled that Harrell's actions were justified. What do you think?
Meaningless in any other case. Depending on one grand jury decision in another jurisdiction to justify a similar action is legal folly. Another prosecutor might not present the case in the same way. The people sitting on your grand jury might look at the situation differently.
 
It meant a lot to Paul. Not to mention, if it had been any other way, we would have never seen any Paul Harrell videos.
 
This seems like a how many angels can dance on the head of a pin discussion.

Shooting the driver, tires, or radiators means the vehicle will still be going some distance. Taking out a track on a tank makes it a stationary target but still one that offers a threat.

If you shoot the vehicle with a 120mm on an Abrams tank it's still going to move on a bit not to mention the collateral damage. The solution causing more damage than the threat is not an answer.

Being alert is one answer buy if you're standing on the sidewalk where the vehicle jumps the curb you'll be the first victim.

There are over 8 billion people in the world. Let's say each person goes out in a crowd once a year. The true number of people going out in crowds is obviously much higher. Live in a big city and you're in crowds several times a day.

Let's also say 25000 are killed or injured in.a vehicle attack. We know that number is really much lower.

Doing the math you have a .000003125% chance of being killed or injured in a vehicle attack.That's very low odds. We're on our 3rd page discussing this highly improbable event. We might as well be discussing being attacked by a shark, being killed by a moose, bit by a rattlesnake, or hit in the head by space junk. Stats for all these things can be skewed by location and activity.

We shouldn't ignore the events with a low probability. However, we should spend more time and energy to prepare for more likely events.
 
The scenarios where I've seen vehicles stopped effectively, and reasonably consistently by gunfire in dashcam/badgecam videos, the vehicle was moving very slowly, and the defender was usually in place and already targeted on the vehicle before it began to move. As in a car is blocked in by police, the driver tries to bludgeon their way out of the block-in and in the process gets the car aimed at an officer who is typically already pointing a gun at the driver from relatively close range.

There are also examples where a driver shoots at an officer from a stationary vehicle, then accelerates away as the officer returns fire. This is a less sure option, by far. In some cases the return fire is effective, and in those scenarios the vehicle may come to an almost immediate stop, or it may crash out of, or almost out of, visual range. In some cases it is not effective and the vehicle escapes--at least in the short term.

These situations are not a good analog for a typical vehicle attack where the vehicle is in motion at a good pace approaching, passing and moving away from a defender that is not expecting someone to use a vehicle as a weapon.
 
IF I ever have to use a weapon on somebody in a vehicle, I'll be shooting for the engine. Not the radiator, but the timing or fuel system that's behind the radiator. Then it's run, run, run away to the side. Hit the timing chain or belt and the engine stops violently.
 
Gold Dot appears to perform well against auto glass.
Screenshot (24).png
 
Gold Dot appears to perform well against auto glass.
View attachment 1245629
Penetration is only a small part of the equation. Most bullets will penetrate auto glass. It's deflection that you need to take into account. Deflection is affected by the angle the bullet hits the windshield. Windshields have different angles on different makes and models of vehicles. There are no magic windshield penetrating bullets. The military spent a lot of tax dollars trying to develop a 5.56 mm round that would reliably work on vehicles at the start of the GWOT. They never did come up with a totally acceptable solution.
 
IF I ever have to use a weapon on somebody in a vehicle, I'll be shooting for the engine. Not the radiator, but the timing or fuel system that's behind the radiator. Then it's run, run, run away to the side. Hit the timing chain or belt and the engine stops violently.
Okay. Go for the timing chain.

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Where is the chain on an F-150 Lightning anyway?
 
IF I ever have to use a weapon on somebody in a vehicle, I'll be shooting for the engine. Not the radiator, but the timing or fuel system that's behind the radiator. Then it's run, run, run away to the side. Hit the timing chain or belt and the engine stops violently.
Fantasy.
 
It's important also to consider that running away may not even be an option if part of thick enough crowd of people. Be careful not to set yourself up for a situation where all you can do is stand there and take it.
I struggle with this everytime I'm with my family in a public setting.🙃
They are always in la-la land, not aware of thier surroundings, and not understanding my actions and I'm constantly explaining myself to them when our actions conflict. E.G. :

We go to Dairy Queen on a Wednesday night. I want an interior booth and I want my seat to have view of the dining room exits and the parking lot entrance. They want to sit in in the exterior booth that would be the most likely to be hit by a driver that looses contol after entering the parking lot. And they want to put me in the seat have me staring at a TV or a wall instead of being able to see the exits.

Walking down the sidewalks in a shopping center, I want our group to be close to the buildings instead of the road, but I want to be the one in our group closest to the road.

Choosing a parking spot at the mall, I want one that has good view in as many directions as possible. I don't care if I have to walk a little further, I'm not parking our Camry between the jacked up 4x4 and the Tahoe, I'm gonna park between the Civic and the Sentra, or preferably on an end space.

After decades of this my wife is finally starting to understand why I do some of the things I do, but It is still often a struggle.🤪
 
Thankfully, someone does this for us so we don't have to do it ourselves:

This one is from 2 weeks ago, and they attempt to stop a running engine on an engine stand with various small arms up to 50 BNG




This one is older, and they attempt to stop a running engine in a car with various small arms:

 
According to Sergeant Kirkland, a 357 Magnum will crack the engine block of a truck.



Of course, you need to use 158-grain jacketed semi-wadcutter man-stoppers. That's all I load myself.
 
One issue with shooting at the vehicle/operator is that unless you know for sure they're targeting you specifically you won't really know if it's terrorism or a drunk driver or an elderly person with a medical event.

It would not go well to open fire in 2 of the 3 above scenarios.
 
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