Very bad tactics...

For anyone interested there is a good analysis of the incident on YT here.

 

Link doesn't work.

 

Seems someone wants to make it personal,and not a general rule that covers more than 50%.

So,by that rule,I have done and taught all that I penned,so MY TRUTHS may not be YOUR truths = but that does not make it less than truth.

NEVER did I point a finger at you,about any of my posts ---- you chose to take it as it was you and no one else.

Guess I cannot say anything that will not be about you ?.

I am taking my ball and going home to momma !.You guys play so mean.

 

Your above post where you tear me a new A hole ,quote by quote.

As if I was talking about and at you when I posted the FACTS that I see and firmly believe to be true.n

 

Ok, we agree on that as much as I am STRONGLY annoyed at how many think they "know" how to retain their weapon.[ yea,off topic ].

If your willing to carry & hopefully conceal it,then how about the discipline to take classes in weapon retention & when and how to use that smokepole & how to take a person your holding at gunpoint = to a conclusion [ one your TRAINED and comfortable with ].

At some point ,if your carrying a gun.You might need to draw it.

It is VERY possible [ according to all the actual incidents in the NRA "armed citizen" ] that you will not have to shoot.

THEN WHAT ?,you now have a perp at gunpoint !.

Hope you see my point,thanks.

 

I was taught in the Academy and other training that you have to try and maintain a 3' personal or reactive space between you and the perp at all times. This gives you time to react in the event of an attack!

 

My (limited) experience with force-on-force training showed that 3 ft is not nearly enough reaction space.

 

Old video of an old man... In another lifetime, we tested this. And they say never bring a knife to a gunfight...

 

We trained our officers to keep a 7 meter distance (21 feet) from any possible assaulter and proved it over and over again with hands on Tueller drills (for those who've never heard of it the Tueller drill shows that an individual with a knife can reach someone with their sidearm holstered before it can be drawn if the offender is allowed to get closer than 21 feet...and is willing to execute an all out suicidal charge). In short, if any of our officers in training allowed one of the trainers to get closer than 21 (and our trainers were very good at talking their way closer, distracting their way closer... etc.) they were almost always able to reach the "trainee" (an experienced officer - not a rookie) with that blade before the officer could clear leather - even while back-pedaling as hard as they could go... The only officers that "beat the distance" had serious athletic skills and were able to scoot backwards as quick as a defensive end in football. The very few that succeeded, of course, not only knew what was coming - but were also young and very fit...

Put simply -distance is your friend in any possible physical confrontation - armed or not... In fact, whenever two officers went to make an arrest where even possible weapons were involved they were taught to stand off, controlling the individual at gun point - and only when the subject obeyed commands (the usual "freeze, turn around, on your knees, etc" ) would the handcuffing officer secure his or her weapon and then approach - while the second officer kept their distance while covering the subject with whatever weapon was being employed... You never ever want to be close to a possible opponent with weapon in hand if at all possible...

All of the above is why I started this thread.. anyone with weapon in hand that approaches a hostile individual is asking for trouble and there really are folks around skilled enough to take a weapon right out of your hands and use it... right then. The actions of the father and son in this instance were not only clearly illegal - but also guaranteed there would be a desperate wrestling struggle for that shotgun that ended in the victim being shot and killed...

Terrible incidents like this can haunt a community for years and certainly provide ammo for the anti- gun crowd ...

I've said this before but it bears repeating for any armed citizen... your tactics in any kind of confrontation are more important than your weapons skills every time....

 

These two guys took stupid to an Olympic level. I'm just stunned by their idiocy. We can certainly study this case for many lessons on what not to do. It appears that they made serious errors on many levels, legal, moral and tactical.

 

Theres so much more to carrying a gun than just carrying a gun.

Unfortunately many EDC folks dont realize this.

 

Backstory. An individual had popped up on the cameras of several residents in this community. I imagine that it was less that Ahmaud Arbery was black and more that he looked like the guy on camera.



Greg McMichael also had a pistol stolen from his vehicle on Jan 1st. I don’t know if anyone saw anything or it was caught on video. I imagine that this will come out at trial.

On the day in question Arbery is seen walking through the community. He turns his head sides to side, runs into house under construction. 0:18 - 0:19 of this video



Someone comes out of a house opposite and gets on a cell phone. A call was placed to 911 at this time.

Several mins later he exits the house under construction and runs up the street. The McMichaels pursue.



When the video of the shooting starts Arbery runs for 16 secs up the street towards the McMichaels truck, charges Travis McMichael and punches and wrestles with him over the shotgun. Arbery is then shot.



Personally I wouldn’t have found myself in this kind of situation. That’s because besides calling the police I wouldn’t have gotten involved. Incidents like this only harden my resolve to not ever get involved in something that doesn’t involve friends or family unless it’s something that is just so over the top that it’s clear cut what the societal response would be.

 

This statement kinds says it all. The fact that you think they would have been up on charges anyway indicates you feel they were in the wrong anyway. In that case, the gun had little to do with the indecent other than to make the outcome a little more deadly for the victim. Anyway, that's my take. The clip I saw made it look as if they were flat out pursuing the dude. Pure intent...

What if... the victim, was armed as well, and was more alert to the behavior of the killers? (2 big mistakes) Don't know the back story of why he was running around in that neighborhood, but he still should have been more alert, and he still could have done better at either fighting back, or just plain avoiding the two chasing him. Lesson to be learned...

 

GREAT breakdown of the 'incident'.

My counterplay is that the dead guy was "dead right" and should be alive ------ if he did not ATTACK A MAN WITH A GUN,that was not appearently pointed / aimed at him.

I can take either side and have a great argument with myself "-)

But my legal mind says the 2 or 3 involved citizens were 'dead wrong' in attempting to play LEO.

This has played out on screen too many times to not see how it ends.

Arrests,criminal record,COURT EXPENSES [ tens of THOUSANDS ] and your face all over the news for at least a year.

And if by luck and chance your exonerated = the press will barely mention it.

You pull that trigger , and the rest of your ENTIRE LIFE will be on hold for a year or ten.

It better be your ONLY & LAST CHOICE.

 

@boom boom , I’d like to hear your interpretation of the Georgia statute on citizen’s arrest:

It seems improbable to claim that the accused had knowledge of a felony (because it didn’t exist - at worst under Georgia statute, Arbery’s presence at the construction sit (as evidenced by the surveillance footage) was a misdemeanor. At best - if there weren’t any “No Trespassing” signs - it wasn’t a crime at all). Without the knowledge of a felony, their pursuit (and subsequent attempt at apprehension) was not justified under Georgia law. “Suspicion” of a felony isn’t the same as the “knowledge” of a felony required under the statute.

(There’s a woman in jail in Georgia awaiting trial for manslaughter after following a hit and run driver that ended in a shooting, Her claim of citizen’s arrest was rejected because it was only a misdemeanor, not a felony.)

 

I see a "presumption" of a pursuit & arrest !.

I said before ,I can easily see and argue BOTH sides of this one ---- at the same time.

But will reserve both till there is ANY court rulings.

 

This.

Citizens do tend to get themselves in trouble, pursuing misdemeanor suspects, and/or pointing guns at misdemeanor suspects, in an effort to “detain” the suspects, when no legal justification exists to pursue, point a firearm, or detain.

I say this as a recently-retired police officer, who worked patrol for 33+ years.