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VERY, VERY SERIOUS QUESTION

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by armedpolak, Jan 17, 2007.

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  1. Sharps-shooter

    Sharps-shooter Member

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    everybody getting together at the big boy's restaurant is too big a target. What you need is an affinity group, aka a cell. That's you and your brothers and cousins, or maybe you and some of your buddies, or maybe even you and some other like-minded folks you don't know too well...but i recommend trust.

    You and your little group act as an autonomous unit. you recognize that there are other such units, and maybe on rare occasion you temporarily join forces with another unit. but your rules are your own, and no one outside your unit dictates to you what you can and can't do to advance your cause.

    Oppression requires order, and unified force. resistance does not. It is much easier to take down a power structure, than to put one into place and keep it there. by small groups acting as autonomous units, there is no way to take off the head. for your enemies, it's like being swarmed by wasps. you can kill a wasp, but you can't kill them all.

    This is a strategy that's been used by the fenians, the french resistance in WWII, and many groups currently active in insurgencies around the world. works pretty well.
     
  2. ForeverArmed

    ForeverArmed member

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    Well, yes and no. Read on...


    These things can be bought on the black market if someone wants to. They can even be fabricated by someone with the necessary equipment and skill. Granted, that's not nearly as easy, safe, or convenient as doing it legally, which you're obviously right about us not being able to do.


    I know people who have done so in a "bad" state.


    I also know someone who has brought a handgun into DC many times.


    In spite of my nitpicks above, I do basically agree with you. The government seems to know better than to try to confiscate guns in one fell swoop -- although the aftermath of Katrina suggests that a major disaster could trigger such an attempt. What you're saying goes back to that classic allegory of the frog being slowly boiled to death in a pot -- it doesn't jump out because the water is being heated too gradually for the frog to notice anything wrong. But while the frog has an excuse, we don't, because we're aware of what's going on.

    What gun owners really need to do is agree when things are bad enough to jump out of the pot, and then abide by that agreement. If it were up to me, it would be with a federal renewal of the AWB -- even with a grandfather clause (which, as you point out, is a major pacifier of gun owners). We need to think of our childrens' freedom, too.
     
  3. Tom Servo

    Tom Servo Member

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    I have a slightly different take. I've spoken to LEOs and soldiers, and the plain fact is, if it comes down to a real SHTF, most of them will have already defected.

    Remember, in NOLA, they had to bus in the JBT's from California to do the confiscations. Them and mercenaries. Not the NOLA police (who had largely gone AWOL), not the Feds, and not the Reserves.

    If ordered to do things that run counter to the spirit of what they signed up to do, most LEOs and GIs I know will be on our side resisting the no-knocks and seizures.

    So, the chances that I will ever be forced to engage "government agents" will be slim to none. When things get that bad, they'll have to start recruiting mercenaries and any lowlifes they can hand a gun and a badge to. The folks in uniform we know won't be among them.

    When the defections start, that's what'll throw the system off balance. I don't really see an us/them situation so much as the men in power looking around and saying, "I think we really just screwed up" before backing down.

    If it ever comes down to door-to-door seizures, it will be after a protracted and widespread period of other civil-rights violations.
     
  4. Dionysusigma

    Dionysusigma Member

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    If they ever actually "come for your guns," it'll be one at a time, or rather one type at a time.

    No handguns? My AR-15 will be just dandy.
    No ARs or AKs? I'll still have an M14.
    No autoloaders at all? I'll still have my Mauser.
    No centerfires? At least I have my 10-22.
    No rifles? At least I still have my trap-shooting O/U.

    No guns? Well, I still have my...

    ... dangit. :banghead:

    I wonder if the "time to dig 'em up" has already passed.
     
  5. Harry Paget Flashman

    Harry Paget Flashman Member

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    IANAL, but any discussions I were to have in public or in private, whether termed "hypothetical" or not could be construed by a zealous government as a conspiracy.

    Me. I just try to do the right thing.
     
  6. Harry Paget Flashman

    Harry Paget Flashman Member

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    Good point Furious Styles made about two or more. Just for the record, I was talking only to myself. :) I wouldn't want to me misconstrued.
     
  7. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Voting is highly overrated. It usually doesn't work.

    A backup plan would be prudent. I have one. Do you?
     
  8. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

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    The problem with voting is, it requires an informed, intelligent, interested, and motivated voting public.
    Sorry, but I just do not believe that we have a majority of these anymore. People's lives have become (or at least are perceived to be) so complicated and stress filled, that they WANT the government to assume more control over their lives.
    The founding fathers anticipated that this might happen, and built our country on "The Rule of Law," not the rule of majority; however, government education has eliminated the requisite informed and intelligent part so that the vast majority of people in this country think we are a democracy and the the majority rule.
    The Democrats and the media (the same thing) encourage this, the Republicans do nothing to correct this (as they see this is what the people want, and they want to stay in power so they have to give the people what they want).
    Voting is actually working against us, not for us (the 17th amendment did not help this out by stripping the states of most of their power and rights). We are very close to having a majority of folks that do not pay income taxes, and so WANT more government in their live.
    Since we have become majority rule, once we cross that threshold, there will be no brakes on cart to hell.
    It can change, but something, somewhere, somehow, has to cause that change (as the old fickle MO is against independence and the individual) and there is a lot of momentum to overcome.
    Still, we must keep chipping away, we did not get into this overnight, we likely will not get out of it overnight either.
    Keep thinking, keep vigilant, stand true to your values and pass them on. There is always hope. If not hope, have a good rifle and know how to use it!
     
  9. dfaugh

    dfaugh Member

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    Before SHTF

    Funny, I was sorta thinking about some of this the other day (was watching a show on TV about the 1960s (which I lived through). And, back then we had thousands (sometimes MANY thousands) of people marching on Washington, State Capitals or anywhere else, trying to PEACEFULLY change the things they felt were wrong. Whether you agreed or not, these protests very definitely had an effect on the political climate of the times. (and, notably a few DID lose their lives (Remember Kent State?), which only served to strengthen the message.) Unfortunately, alot of the "peace movement ended up being eventually associated with the drug culture, and lost alot of credibility.

    Nowadays, I doubt you could get more than a coupla hundred people to do something like this. We see more and more injustices committed every day (not just the 2A), yet usually the individuals involved are left "swinging in the wind" without any support from others. ("It can't happen to ME!").

    For all they've done, the gun rights groups have done very little of consequence, other than tell us who we *should* vote for (and ask for money), because of that particular politicians stance on gun rights (but what if they disagree with ALL the other things I do?). They "lobby" for gun rights, but haven't even begun to stem the tide

    What we need is to change the PUBLIC perception, as well as send a message to the politicians that they have a force that needs to be reckoned with. Sending letters (which will get you a "canned" response isn't gonna get us anywhere. We need to show up, "on their doorstep", a peacefully let them know that there are LARGE numbers of people WILLING to fight for their rights.
     
  10. Dorryn

    Dorryn Member

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    Just make sure you post here on THR where you buried them so that if you DO die due to government action, the rest of us can dig them up and continue fighting. :D A buried gun does nobody any good if nobody living knows where it is.
     
  11. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    RANT ON

    I've been politically active at the local, state, and fed level for decades. I've written countless LTE's, volunteered on campaigns for elected officials who aren't just good, but damned good, on RKBA, donated time and $ to NRA/GOA/JPFO/SAS/etc, gotten my instructor certificate, taught people to shoot, ad nauseum.

    I've asked other shooters for help. Just a few hours of time on a Saturday afternoon. Maybe 1% respond, and of those, half don't show up. Heck, most don't even want to be bothered going down the street to vote in a general election, never mind a special election where there happens to be a vacant seat.

    And you're asking if there is some sort of a national/global plan in place to actually take up arms and fight when a gun ban is enacted? Dude, with all due respect, are you crazy? If gun owners aren't walking the walk now, when the battles are easy and there's no threat of physical harm, what in the world makes you think they'll fight when push really comes to shove?

    RANT OFF
     
  12. Manedwolf

    Manedwolf member

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    I've avoided this issue entirely by choosing to live in a state that does not have registration, and by buying things from private sellers when possible.

    The state does not know what I have, nor do they care.

    If you've chosen to live in a state where there's mandatory registration, and the government knows exactly who you are and what firearms you own, well...you've made THAT bed yourself, and you'll have to sleep in it.
     
  13. jondar

    jondar Member

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    Polak, I have collected American Rifleman magazines for many years. I recently added a 1949 issue to my collection. In it the NRA was warning that a crisis was near regarding gun possession and if we weren't vigilant we could lose all our guns. I'm not saying this couldn't happen, but if we can go another 58 years and maintain the current status quo, then for many of us it won't make any difference.
     
  14. Zero_DgZ

    Zero_DgZ Member

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    Yes. Aim and fire.

    I'll be the first to admit that in a SWAT team going 'round kicking in doors for confiscations sort of scenario I probably won't live long either way, but that's fine with me. I'll die right, and eventually they'll die wrong. We'll see what, if anything, is on the other side of this particular mortal coil and who gets judged how accordingly.
     
  15. carlrodd

    carlrodd Member

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    you have no way of knowing the outcome of standing tall against oppressive authorities, if that would ever be a choice you might decide to make. the patriots in the american revolution were pretty thoroughly convinced that theirs might well be a losing cause....what was arrayed against them was overwhelming. but they acted, and resolutely, because they felt it was the only right thing to do; it had come to that point. hopefully, if things ever 'come to that point' in our lifetime, each of us will have the courage and conviction to act, and damn the consequences if we find ourselves alone. we can't act because of some assurance of success, we would have to act out of conviction.
     
  16. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Here's my plan:

    Step 1 - raise my 11, 5, and 3 yr old children in the values of their parents.
    Step 2 - Do my upmost to give them the ability to repeat Step 1.
    Step 3 - Trust that the values instilled in each will guide the decision-making to be appropriate for the situation.

    It's the best I can come up with right now. But I can say that Step 1 is my prime directive, so to speak - that mean no huddling in corners but it doesn't foretell many open-field charges against fixed positions, so to speak, either. Havin' a Daddy around to raise 'em sounds like a better plan than not. Step 2, on the other hand, changes the mindset a bit...
     
  17. JP1271

    JP1271 Member

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    I agree with what BUMM said about a slow erosion of our rights...for instance...Massachusetts where I live, you would think would be the most gun toting state in the land with it's Patriotic History...instead this state has the most stringent gun laws in the country...for instance if you are convicted of a FIRST TIME MISDEMEANOR that carries a sentence of over 2 years prison time say goodbye to any chance of ever getting a pistol permit or license to own any rifle or shotgun over a 10 shot capacity... I am by no means condoning misdemeanors and certain ones should be on the list to disqualify a person...but there are also certain traffic violations that carry the FIRST TIME 2.5 year sentence!!!...so I believe slowly these redundant laws that are being passed will be a deterent to gun ownership...good thing NH is close by!!!
     
  18. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    I would stay active and watch the political scene. I don't think "the ban" will ever happen. Still if it did, while the majority of gun owners would probably sit by and MAYBE bury their guns. I guarantee that a small percentage WOULD actually fight it in the literal sense. My brother, who I've often cited as someone who cares neither here nor there about firearms, has said the exact same thing. The idea being that guns are some people's ONLY passion in life similar to say music, or a sport. Imagine the national outrage if they banned football. Something that some people hold more sacred than Christianity. Now imagine someone banning a God-given right (to self-defence and defence of country). I think there would be reaction from both political parties on this as well as personal. My brother had even used the words, "there'd be blood in the streets".
     
  19. tsteven1

    tsteven1 Member

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    Would I man up?

    That's a tough one. I've had my moment in the sun, (years ago,) and death is a part of the continuum, and I'm a fair shot.
    My lawyer once told me, "Don't try to change the world." However, my input helped spur CHL Reciprocity between Texas and Alabama.
    I was married once to a Mexican woman, went through the years of Residency process, and had begun her CHL training, so those legally here can legally KBA like me. America is a pretty neat place for all of us.
    If we gave up our arms, we'd be giving up a part, or the whole, dream surely. Should I let those pukes in Congress destroy my Liberty? Would I be able to get my shots where they would count? My State Rep. is a VietNam Vet, but evidently aligned with Jane Fonda. The Bill of Rights applies to citizens, and limits government intrusion.
    I think that I would forfeit my precious heartbeat in support of the dream. Thank you.
     
  20. tsteven1

    tsteven1 Member

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    Would I man up?

    That's a tough one. I've had my moment in the sun, (years ago,) and death is a part of the continuum, and I'm a fair shot.
    My lawyer once told me, "Don't try to change the world." However, my input helped spur CHL Reciprocity between Texas and Alabama.
    I was married once to a Mexican woman, went through the years of Residency process, and had begun her CHL training, so those legally here can legally KBA like me. America is a pretty neat place for all of us.
    If we gave up our arms, we'd be giving up a part, or the whole, dream surely. Should I let those pukes in Congress destroy my Liberty? Would I be able to get my shots where they would count? My State Rep. is a VietNam Vet, but evidently aligned with Jane Fonda. The Bill of Rights applies to citizens, and limits government intrusion. If I buy a beef cow, will I have to pay a bovine flatulence fee?
    I think that I would forfeit my precious heartbeat in support of the dream. Thank you.
     
  21. pharmer

    pharmer Member

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    If a law forbidding ANY FIREARM POSSESSION was passed today, there wouldn't be enough trucks available to take them to the furnaces. 90% of gunowners would turn them in immediately and as the holdouts are shot dead by SWAT teams with a mission, having guns would be very unattractive. Joe
     
  22. up_onus

    up_onus Member

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    I'll think about how I will cross that bridge as I come to it!
     
  23. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    Don't do it wrong

    You don't want to shoot the ones coming to get your guns, you just want to shoot the ones authorizing it. Far fewer number and far more effective.
     
  24. Speer

    Speer Member

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    I would seriously hope so. I would hope many of the rank-n-file troops and officers would resist that kind of tyranny.

    The ruling elite are likely aware of this. I doubt they want another Ruby Ridge on their hands. I suspect the first highly publicized shootout with an American family would blow up in their faces. So, like it's been mentioned ad nauseum: the Fed's will kill gun rights a little bit at a time.
     
  25. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Never forget the election of '94 or how close we came to having Gore or Kerry in the Executive Mansion. A few votes do count. Oftentimes it's a few votes that make a world of difference (one can argue the actual difference in political parties as politicians seem to go their own way or respond to big business dollars once in office). ;)

    Also, never forget your history lessons. Somewhere in the future might lie another Concord bridge whereupon a few men stood and changed the course of history. History tends to repeat itself. It took men like Dr. Warren and a silversmith by the name of Revere who spent some time in detention as a result. Anyone remember this stanza?
    Stay active politically, train new shooters, teach them some valuable history and don't worry about where to meet. I think that should that horrible time ever come, several thousands of true Americans who work within the government, who know their history, who know and love this nation, will alert the right people "ready to ride and spread the alarm". Wherever and whoever those right "countryfolk" people may be, you can count that they'll stand fast on the bridge of their choice once they get the word.

    More than likely we'll be taxed out of existance or into a "Robert of Locksley with his 7 score band of Merry Men only to resist the perfidious Sheriff of Nottingham" type scenario. :rolleyes: When King Richard gets back his evil brother Prince John will be in soooo much trouble (if you like Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe storyline)

    Far better to vote, campaign, teach skills and history than to worry. 80,000,000 Americans own a whole lot of arms. No reason for doom and gloom. Instead I find it reason to say, "Don't Worry. Be Happy." :D

    But a wise man will be ready, should history repeat itself. Me? I just like to go out a-shootin' and a-plinkin'. It's fun and good for the soul... AND... it keeps gun makers, munition mfgs and politicians busy.
     
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