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Vid: India gun control enabled Mumbai slaughter

Discussion in 'Legal' started by DadaOrwell2, Nov 28, 2008.

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  1. DadaOrwell2

    DadaOrwell2 Member

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  2. doubleplay

    doubleplay Member

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    If you think this massacre could have been avoided by couple of CWP holders I think you are sorely mistaken. This is not a "die hard" movie.
    Back in 1997 entire Los Angeles police force was helpless for hours against two tugs holding machine guns.We are talking about 20+ trained assailants here...
    I am all for guns but I think you are stretching your imagination
     
  3. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    the ridley report? sweet jeebus
     
  4. withdrawn34

    withdrawn34 Member.

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    Unless everyone was open carrying ARs, at least, and also had defense tactics planned out, I think we have to be careful about stating that a few people with handguns could have really been super effective.

    Better than nothing, for sure, but let's look at the facts and be realistic. I know this might sound like heresy to some of you, but hear me out.

    1) Several well-conditioned and well-practiced men following a meticulous plan using fully automatic rifles in extremely crowded city areas during the most crowded times of the year.
    2) GRENADES. Sorry, but I just don't know how I would ever defend against a grenade. Maybe I could throw it back, I'm not sure. All I know is that I really, really doubt real life could ever be like a few hours of playing Call of Duty.
    3) Group tactics by the terrorists. How do you engage multiple targets at a distance while trying to take cover from automatic rifle fire? What even is acceptable cover from this type of fire in a civilian setting?

    I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been a difference had some of these people been armed in some way (maybe even just a few rifles and shotguns in a back office in the hotels). However, I still think there would have been significant casualties.

    Hell, even arming the police with something substantive would have even helped! Special armed squads are great but don't help when it takes several minutes for them to arrive versus a street cop who may have arrived much sooner.

    This is a true terrorist attack in every sense of the word.

    I don't have any solutions and I'm not proposing any. Just trying to give everyone, including myself, something to think about.
     
  5. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Stipulate a total freedom of open/concealed carry.

    If everybody wandering around the hotels and streets were armed--and trained and competent--the question is what they could have done against explosives? Against sudden spray/pray AK fire at close range?

    Given the nature of assaults on our soldiers in Irag and Afghanistan, I don't believe that even a fully armed citizenry would have been a deterrent against such an assault.

    Dealing with the proverbial lone nutzoid with a gun is vastly different than dealing with trained and dedicated terrorists who come at you in groups.

    And the average CHL holder here in the US is unlikely to want to or be able to deal with multiple terrorists in a hotel building. Not if he has much going for him in the way of smarts, anyhow.

    Some situations, laws or the lack thereof don't appear to relate to the problem.
     
  6. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I doubt that a CCW-rich environment could have thwarted these attacks. They were well-coordinated and seemingly well executed. Anyone standing up against them with an eye to preventing the takeover would have been gunned down, since the response would be, by definition, uncoordinated.

    That Said (tm), having a CCW on hand may very well have made the difference between being herded into a deathtrap from an outside café, and being able to shoot the one or two assailants charged with gathering up everyone from a given area, and then running like a bunch of frightened hares with my family.

    So, would it have made a difference in the big picture? Probably not. Might it have made a difference in one or two of the many small pictures that make up the big picture? Quite probably.

    Mike
     
  7. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    A hotel full of CCW holders probably could have stopped at least a few of the terrorists.
     
  8. The Foo

    The Foo Member

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    This type of situation would be hard, even for CC holders.

    The average CC holder carries what in his pistol on average? 13 rounds? 8 or so if it's a 1911? Maybe, just maybe a spare magazine or so.

    Like someone said before, this isn't Die Hard.
     
  9. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    I didn't say do it without harm, most of the people confronting the terrorists, if not all, would get shot, but an entire hotel full of them(who's almost certainly going to die if they don't fight back, unless they can hide) would be able to take out at least a few terrorists.
     
  10. HK G3

    HK G3 Member

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    I think the initial assault, no, but from what I've been reading, it sounds as if towards the latter part of the attack, where gunmen were taking Westerners and others hostage, there was one assailant guarding hundreds of people, and had split up. Also, IIRC, none of them appeared to be wearing body armor, was that the case?

    A CCW would have been a great tool to pull at just the right moment should you have survived the initial assault. In this scenario, I strongly doubt any LE agency would have had a problem with a permit-holder putting an "assassin's" shot into one of the gunmen - at which point, there's at least one AK-47 in the hands of some good guys, if not more, since they apparently brought along nap-sacks full of Kalashnikovs and grenades into the hostage areas. Once that's done, call local law enforcement, and update them as to your condition, and just hunker down and keep them updated, so at least you won't get shot at by the tactical response teams.

    In my mind, it could have made some difference towards the end for sure.
     
  11. 7.62X25mm

    7.62X25mm member

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    They pulled up in boats, tied up at the public dock, walked onto the street openly armed with AK's, grenades, I think RPG's.

    India Marine Commandos -- with air support and communications weren't able to get them under control for hours.

    -- but a suicide bomber in Israel was once taken out at a holy site by two legally armed civilians. So there's an outside chance.

    RKBA for the PEOPLE is to protect the citizens from tyranny of their govt.

    ". . . all enemies, foreign and domestic."
     
  12. conserv1

    conserv1 Member

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    Maybe,.. if they KNEW a number of people had concealed weapons, the wouldn't have done it in the first place.

    Doubleplay wrote..
    "If you think this massacre could have been avoided by couple of CWP holders I think you are sorely mistaken. This is not a "die hard" movie.
    Back in 1997 entire Los Angeles police force was helpless for hours against two tugs holding machine guns.We are talking about 20+ trained assailants here...
    I am all for guns but I think you are stretching your imagination"

    IF 2 armed citizens each killed 1 terrorist, at least 20 lives could have been saved. 200 dead /20 assailants averages out to 10 per terrorist.
    20 people dying needlessly affects hundreds of others.

    The "sheeple attitude" is a major problem in this world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  13. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    Hard or easy

    Ghandi said the most terrible thing the British did to India. Was to take away their weapons.

    And he was a pacifist!

    They could have made a terrible mistake, picked a Hotel where a big seminar of Firearms Instructors was in progress! 200+ of good shots!

    It appears once the initial assault had changed to seek and collect, two armed friends could have killed their captor, collected a AK, and his bug out bag, headed to the highest point in the building, and if they had finally been killed, an expensive death.

    The worse place to assault is up wards on stairs, pull pin, throw, and follow that with a short blind burst of AK fire (that is if you had the AK and Bug Out bag) 5 or 6 grenades, 5 or 6 magazines (4X30 equals 130 rounds) real close range, semi auto 3 rounds per target.

    If you have a few able bodied people, block the stairs with mattresses. You would be amazed what good leader ship can accomplish in a very short time.

    So you get killed in the end? You can't live for ever.
     
  14. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    massive assault? this was 10 guys
     
  15. onebigelf

    onebigelf Member

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    They killed almost 200 unarmed people. There's a way armed resistance would have been worse? People in the neighborhood where that Jewish center was located threw ROCKS until they were driven off with machine gun fire and grenades. You don't think a handful of AR's and Fn-FALs would have helped? Imagine someone trying this in Tampa. How long before the handguns and deer rifles come out and the attackers start taking casualties?

    John
     
  16. Grey54956

    Grey54956 Member

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    I agree with the math, at least to some extent. The 10 men may have killed 200, but I believe that terrorist effectiveness grows geometrically based on their number. With 10 terrorists, they may have been good for 20 each, but if a ccw holder, or a few holders had taken down 2-3, they may have only been good for maybe 6 each.
     
  17. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    The fact is I would rather my government "allow" me to be lawfully armed in this situation rather than lawfully unarmed.
     
  18. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I haven't read anything from the naysayers on here to indicate that they think that armed resistance is somehow worse than going with the program on the terrorists' suicide mission. They're just saying that uncoordinated, armed resistance is unlikely to thwart the attack.

    Me? I'm split. Sure, if a high percentage of people were CCing, and were well trained, that may have gone very differently. More likely, a few CCers would be able to alter their small part of the scene, quite possibly for the better. I agree that this makes it all worthwhile, along with the general deterrent effect of CCW being legal. People are just saying to keep it in perspective.

    Mike
     
  19. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

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    Seems to me that this went on long enough that after the initial attack, folks with the means would start responding. Imagine it happens in a town near you, it sucks if your in the first 10 houses (and not prepared), but here in Pasco county, the attack would have quickly ground to halt after that. This was happening in people neighborhoods, they could have responded, they may not have but we will never know since they were deprived of the means of doing so.

    This type of attack by the way is the way I have always considered the next likely thing in this country. Take the average 10 story office building in Tampa, they typically have two or three entrances, two fire escapes and the elevator bank, and over a thousand for the most part unarmed people (hey, who wants to lose their job?). 5 - 10 gunmen could in a matter of minutes completely own that real estate, 1 team to control the ground floor exits and another on a seek and destroy 1 level at a time to 10. No response could come fast enough to stop it.

    We need to wake up, we are not immune to this, it will happen here.
     
  20. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    This was going to be bad no matter what. This would have been some dead people in a society where everyone is openly armed. As has been said before, there is a big difference between one lone nut (regardless of armament) and a well coordinated group.

    However, as has also been said, they had to split up and take on multiple missions. They had to arrange themselves in such a manner that a few CCW holders could have cut their numbers somewhat.

    It could have meant the difference between 50-100 people dying instead of 200 dying. Look at it as if one guy that was going to kill 25 and wound 70 was taken out of the fight early. It's coldblooded to look at it in terms of numbers, but it is a matter of numbers.

    CCW (or simply, people being able to run to offices, homes, cars which contained weapons) could have easily reduced the overall number dead.

    But, the main issue is this. These terrorists knew that the people would be unarmed, they knew the police would have a horrible response time, and they knew that it would be a while before the police had a chance to to get a specialized team in to counter them.

    Shoot, if these guys had really been on the ball they would have taken initial shots and then ran, probably getting away to fight another day.

    Indians are lucky that this ended at 200, and they are lucky they got all the guys. If I were analyzing this I would be looking not only at liberalizing the guns laws, I would (much more importantly) be looking at setting up an HRT and Rapid Response Unit in all the major city's police departments to handle situations of this nature.
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I'm sure that their plans were premised on not meeting armed resistance from anybody but the police and military, and probably not EFFECTIVE resistance from anybody but the regular army and "elite" anti-terror units.

    If the same thing happened in Cleveland or Louisville, they couldn't assume that they'd only deal with Delta Force or even the Local PD. They'd have to seriously consider that ANY adult on the street could be the one to hide behind a concrete garbage bin, THEN shoot them in the back when they passed.

    Any place but some crap hole like Chicago, and the odds are excellent of such an attack turning into "The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid".

    I think that the major reason why this has never been tried in the United States except on a tiny scale (Mir Aimal Khansi outside CIA HQ) is that the the wouldbe perpetrators simply can't calculate their odds of success to any acceptable degree. They want to kill a bunch of people who won't fight back. They don't want to get into a gunfight. In St. Louis or Indianapolis, that's just can't be guaranteed.
     
  22. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Nobody has determined how many terrorists acted. It has been speculated that it could have been carried out by as few as 10 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/just-ten-trained-terrorists-caused-carnage-1041639.html), but this hasn't been shown to be the actual number. They do have 9 dead and 1 arrested, http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...N-india_30int.ART.State.Edition2.4a6ed87.html but that doesn't mean that there weren't others that escaped.

    As far as the massiveness, sure it was massive. They managed to strike numerous places over a fairly large geographical area and keep up the fighting for days.

    And somewhere in there, they hit the Cafe Leopold.

    You are thinking like a Johnson statistician in Vietnam (body counts) and terrorism doesn't exactly work like that. It is about how much of regular society can be disrupted, not by the actual body counts. So to be successful, they don't have to kill tremendous amounts of people. While not terrorists per se (not killing for the purpose of trying to bring about social, political, or religious change/influence), but rather series killers, the DC snipers have definitely demonstrated how easy it is to grip a large area in terror for a prolonged period of time. The only reason their impact wasn't more significant was that they weren't terrorists that were part of a larger group, just a couple of guys who wanted to kill people. So when they were caught, their threat ended. With terrorist groups, catching the perps of a given event doesn't end the threat, just ends the event. The event itself, as in Mumbai, demonstrates the ability of the terrorists to be able to reek havoc and death at their discretion.
     
  23. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    and

    If reporters were getting close enough with a camera for nice clear photos
    of the bad guys, someone with a pistol would have been close enough for
    a headshot --or at least put a stop to their forward movement until backup
    arrived.

    I get tired of the LAPD shootout being cited. There are plenty of times when
    armed bad guys don't make the news because they get SHOT RIGHT THERE
    RIGHT THEN by cops or Joe Civie before they even have a chance to do much
    damage. It's literally "Nothing to see here, folks, move along" as the body bag
    gets zippered and the pavement gets hosed off.
     
  24. doubleplay

    doubleplay Member

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    As I stated before on this thread some people are really living in a world of false security and die hard movies. Those terrorists let go and released a lot of people(in the hotels) because they were after American and foreign targets. Imagine them taking fire from some citizens in the crowd and answering back with fully automatic rifles. What would be the body count then?
    Wake up people this is not couple thugs invading your home or business. These were suicidal terrorist with hand grenades and fully automatic rifles.
    Has anybody here got hit by fully auto AK-47 fire and tried to respond with a handgun?
     
  25. david_the_greek

    david_the_greek Member

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    well, where I don't believe a group of individuals would band together and save the day with their revolvers and hipowers (probably they'd most likely have in India), if the gunmen went room to room then a well placed string of bullets (spray them till the clip runs out) might have saved a family in a room. Now a lot of things depend on that, 1) did they throw grenades into civilian rooms or just at police forces? 2) did they work in groups of 2 or more, or did they go alone into rooms. I'm sure theres a lot more variables but eh those one seem most relevant.

    I think it could be very realistic that an armed citizen could kill an attacker that came to his room, take his AK/MP5 and stay there till this thing boiled over (or till smoke and fire caused him to have to try to flee). Still a good chance he could be killed, another terrorist could here the single shots from a pistol and wonder what was going on. Obviously just speculating, but I really don't think it would be that extraordinary. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97602334 Go down the page, these guys had some MP5's, notice the double magazine set up going on.
     
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