Quantcast

Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Desertdog, Jan 9, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Desertdog

    Desertdog Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,980
    Location:
    Ridgecrest Ca
    Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard
    Response set up after soldiers forced by attackers to retreat from border
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53656


    Gun-carrying volunteer members of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps have launched patrols along the U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona in support of National Guard troops who just 48 hours earlier were attacked by gunmen and had to retreat, according to officials.

    "We cannot allow this to happen," Minuteman spokeswoman Carmen Mercer told WND. "They were being attacked and had to retreat [because] they do not have permission to defend themselves.

    "I don't care what drug cartel it is, it's unacceptable. The National Guard is there to protect the American public, and they cannot protect themselves."

    She said armed volunteers were being dispatched yesterday to stand "side-by-side" with the guardsmen on their patrols, "until the governor or the president allow them to defend themselves, or send more troops."

    Reports say the soldiers were at a post near Sasabe late Wednesday when the militants came across the border and attacked. Officials said the guardsmen retreated and no one was injured, and an investigation has been launched into the identities of those who later retreated to Mexico.

    Authorities report that corridor in the desert has been the busiest in the area for marijuana seizures lately, with 124,000 pounds taken just since last fall.

    The National Guard troops have been on the scene since last summer, helping Border Patrol agents by operating control rooms, performing maintenance and repairs, building vehicle barriers and spotting and reporting those who enter to U.S. illegally. But they aren't allowed to actively arrest illegals, or confront them.

    The group said it would hold a news conference today at 9 a.m. at the intersection of highways 86 and 286 in Three Points to talk about future plans.

    Volunteers from the group, who have served along the border at various times since 2002, already have helped in the apprehension of more than 10,000 people who illegally entered the United States, officials said.

    They also have begun volunteering their time and money to built sections of security fencing along the border, officials said.

    "We are not at all shocked by this incursion; our president and federal government have sent these lawbreakers a message of immunity if caught, and a helping hand to accomplish their criminal goals," the group said in a statement announcing plans. "Our nation is being overrun by the influx of illegal aliens as well as drug cartels that show no signs of fear in crossing our border and we call upon our federal government to do the job they were elected to do, and refrain from supporting the open border advocates."

    The organization is a "citizen-led initiative" set up to watch the borders and report on illegal activities.

    Officials with the U.S. Border Patrol did not return calls from WND seeking comment, but one blogger had a message that was to the point:

    "This incident, among others, begs the question: HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO TOLERATE THIS??? When the United States military has to retreat from our own border in the face of attacking Mexicans, we have clearly lost control of our territory. Is that okay with you?" asked Lionel Waxman. "Where will we draw the line? Where will we stop them? Tubac? Green Valley? Grant Road? … Who the hell is in charge here?"

    William Gheen, who leads Americans for Legal Immigration, said the question that needs to be answered is what is the U.S. going to go about attacks on its own soil.

    "The Bush administration has stretched our troops to the other side of the planet, depleting the American treasury, while we are being invaded at home," he told WND. "It is outlandish that our troops are being sent to the other side of the planet to supposedly protect us while we are being invaded here and now."

    He said studies show that the death toll from the crimes of illegal aliens within the United States has been estimated from 12-25 lives – per day. "It is an invasion. It is real. People are dying," he said.

    He said without a change in the politics in the United States, and a result that would crack down on the attacks, the two remaining alternatives will be "violence and slavery."

    "Our political system is in deep trouble for this to be happening. This isn't supposed to be happening. Only a disruption in our self-governance can allow this to happen," he said.

    Another group, The Minuteman Project, said that "gun-toting" members of the Mexican drug cartels and military cross regularly into the U.S., and some even have been trained by the U.S. military.

    Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., one of the leaders in the fight to protect the U.S. borders, has said the fact that drug-runners are known to be escorted by the Mexican army should be denounced by the president.

    About 6,000 National Guard troops were assigned to the southwest border states last summer to supplement the work of the Border Patrol. But their work is limited strictly to backing up the Border Patrol, which is why they were forced to retreat as armed militants advanced on them, officials said.
     
  2. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,203
    yea great idea

    not. wait till we get the first screwup from this it could be monumental
     
  3. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,604
    Location:
    Everett, WA Recently escaped from San Diego, PRK
    Well at least civvies aren't going to get railroaded by the UCMJ for the sake of political expediency, like the NGs would be if they defended themselves.

    It's a pretty sad day when we can launguish in Iraq in a protracted policing action, but we can't even defend our own border. Maybe the NG is there just to "Gulf of Tonkin" so we have an excuse to invade Mexico.
     
  4. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,203
    you ever watch the video

    of the minutemen? they can barely handle a demonstration at a shopping center. you really wanna see the carnage when a group of real killers with full autos meet the minutemen?i feel bad for the guys with their stuff together they are gonna be stuck in the middle of scared ineffectual dying wannabes getting cut to ribbons. no win. or they'll demonstate fire dicipline on a par with the behavior in the videos and get some guardsmen killed. hopefully someone in authority will lock em up for their own good.mostof em will haul butt then
     
  5. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    Or they'll shoot a US citizen with dusky skin, like that poor sheepherder near the border the Marines ventilated a few years back.

    Or they'll kill illegals who aren't doing anything except trying to sneak in unarmed.

    Or...

    All it takes is one photogenic screw up.
     
  6. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,203
    i'm pretty sure

    one of the guys i've seen (and to be fair they attract a fringe element that is not representative of the core goals of the majority) will sooner or later screw the pooch at one of their suburban "actions." then it'll be lawyers at 50 paces
     
  7. Fn-P9

    Fn-P9 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2006
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    Washington State
    I am confused. Are the previous comments supportive or not, of everyday citizens helping the national guard and helping to support the boarder or not?
    Isn't helping to keep ILLEGAL immigrants from crossing the boarder a good thing? I mean I like to have an influx of cheap work and all but when the government is unable or UNWILLING to stop illegals, shouldn't we support another organization that is working WITH the government to stop this activity.
    I also don't understand the reason the guardsmen retreated. They were there to support the boarder patrol. But doesn't the boarder patrol try to secure the boarder? So if you hire someone to protect something and they don't, shouldn't they get fired? If armed attackers attack a Louis Armored car, don't you think there would be some sort of fire fight?
    This is a sad time in history indeed. We will shot Kent state students but not some sort of international attack force.hmmmm:cuss:
     
  8. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,719
    Location:
    Western Missouri
    This could lead to the escalation I have feared.

    If I can get confirmation that this story is true. So far, the Minutemen have been armed only for their own security in full compliance with state and federal laws, and per the Minuteman SOP have only been carrying handguns (for fear of the implication that might be made if rifles were present).

    If the Minutemen have stepped up their policy, this could lead to violence.

    But to all of you who are hoping that the government keeps these "yahoos" away from the border, why aren't you asking why the government troops weren't given the weapons, and the SOP to be able to engage foreign nationals crossing a border?

    The Minutemen are Americans. Do you think they want to be on the border?

    Nope. They are there because the government won't do it's constitutional duty and protect the nation's borders.

    This isn't all that different in concept from you arming yourself to prevent a home invasion, or burglary.

    If the police cannot, or will not do their jobs, the responsibility falls to you.

    Well, even our military (for whatever reason), cannot or will not do it's job. So, in order to protect the NG on the border (if this story is to be believed), the Minutemen would simply be protecting our "home."

    Instead of condeming a possible situation of armed Americans defending the border, ask the following questions:

    #1. Why isn't the military capable of defending the country from incursion by foreign nationals? Is it a lack of "capability" or a lack of orders to do so by our politicians?

    #2. Is there anything I can do to support the people who would be putting themselves in direct harm to violence, and legal action in the event they defend their country?

    #3. What has happened on the border over the past however many (10, 20, 30, etc.) years to lead some of my fellow Americans to feel the need to defend the border?
     
  9. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,456
    Location:
    In the land of make believe.
    Then why dont people vote politicians who will allow the National Guard to protect the border effectively?

    I am sorry but the Minutemen do not belong out there on the border. Instead of doing their "actions" and protecting Americans why dont they use their funds to lobby politicians and to do it in a way that does not reek of vigilantieism?

    Seems like it is just a bunch of guys who want to boost their egos.
     
  10. Lucky

    Lucky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Calgary, near Rocky Mountains - Canada
    Lol. They're doing it to boost their egos? Is that what propaganda school taught you to say?


    For Pete's sake I just read that armed groups are making raids across the US-Mexican border, and engaging on US soldiers! And you all respond by slagging the men and women who are fulfilling their true social duty (sorry to get your hopes up - I was referring to defence of the country, not socialist duty).


    I kind of think the 'throw bribes at politicians, that will solve anything' idea is suggestive of a stagnant mind. You really can't come up with better agitprop than that? The whole idea of the Minute Men was that politicians were IGNORING the situation. Ugh, at least make weak arguments with some basis in reality.


    They're out there, doing good, and doing nothing wrong that you can nag them for.

    In response you sink to 'what if' scenarios based on personal insults and racial slurs.

    Did you guys all get the same text message on your blackberries to spam this article on every board you visit?


    Did any of you even consider that the quaint notion of 'the border' where these gunfights are happening is actually some people's back yards?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  11. DKSuddeth

    DKSuddeth Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    777
    Location:
    Bedford, TX
    while I'm not too surprised at some of the 'law and order' and 'only ones' type of replies, it's actually pretty sad about some of the others who are deriding a group of americans who are doing nothing more than most of us bitch about on a daily basis on this forum with regards to what we define 'militia'. Helmke must be laughing his 'collective' ass off at us right about now.
     
  12. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,651
    Location:
    Sunny San Diego
    Accusing others of believing propaganda when you're getting worked up over an article from WORLDNETDAILY.. The irony is comical.
     
  13. Lucky

    Lucky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Calgary, near Rocky Mountains - Canada
    There's no credible ground to attack them, so they go for unscrupulous personal shots suggesting hypothetical disasters based on alleged character flaws like racism and self aggrandizement.

    Well, putting it like that I guess that's how all politics work. Point taken.
     
  14. ForeverArmed

    ForeverArmed member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    191
    I see nothing wrong with armed citizens helping protect the borders. That should be the primary job of the US military, but it won't be until the Defense Department starts concerning itself with defense rather than spending all its resources building a global empire (sorry ... I meant "spreading democracy" :rolleyes: ).

    Putting on a uniform doesn't automatically turn you from a "wannabe" into a superman, although the government would certainly like us to believe that. Typical members of the military are no more intelligent than the pool of citizens from which they're recruited. They're generally no better marksmen than citizens who practice. The only real advantage military personnel have over civilians when it comes to border defense is that they're generally younger and in better physical condition -- not a major consideration if you're not going on long marches.

    I don't think citizens should be shooting at anyone unless they, the NG, or the BP are being shot at. Let the BP take care of arresting the peaceful border crossers. But if a firefight starts, more power to 'em.
     
  15. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,770
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    It's gonna get ugly.

    But, given the climate produced at the border by our own politicians, maybe that's what has to happen next. War is the result of failed diplomacy. Diplomatic means have not even been tried to secure our border, so the process has bee escalated.
     
  16. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,908
    Location:
    Arizona
    These folks may (or may not) have good intentions, but the first time any lead flies they'll end up in the slammer. Local sheriffs have made it clear that any shooters will be arrested and charged. Well aware of this, those crossing the border from Mexico would greatly enjoy the opportunity to "engage and destroy," and have no qualms about doing it. Those that "observe and report" have been useful. Others who think they can protect the border with small arms are just going to get themselves into trouble.
     
  17. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    5,503
    Location:
    Deep in the valley
    As opposed to the absolute peace we have on the border right now? There has ALREADY been violence. It's time to step up to the plate and secure/defend our borders...period.

    Of course the Governator just issued a statement about trying a form of universal healthcare in CA (including illegals in that coverage as well). So soon we may have even more incentive for people to jump the border. :banghead:
     
  18. Gerald in Ga

    Gerald in Ga Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    The country
    Border protection

    By the tone of some of these posts, I guess that all those boys in the Alamo were just vigilanties. Am not trying to offend. Just saying what I'm seeing. If spending money on polititions would work, we would't be in this position in the first place. It's the government that let this happen. Just my opinion.
     
  19. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Hmm, private property owners near the border allow armed citizens onto their land to help protect if from armed trespassers and you think that's out of line?


    That's more sad than what's happening on the border itself.

    If I owned land that was unsafe to use because of armed intrusions, I'd appreciate the help.

    I think some of you are taking the "standing side by side with NG troops" a bit too literally. Oh and maybe a history book or two might not hurt either.

    As for local sheriffs saying whatever they say, it does not matter. This ends up in court in front of a jury, where an armed citizen shoots to help a land owner protect private property from armed intruder, how do you think that will play?

    If you believe that, why can you say you would defend your home against an armed intruder? What's the difference?

    If I saw someone kicking in your front door with a shotgun would you want me to help or just look the other way?
     
  20. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,238
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    If you follow the members you are referring to, you will notice that they take the leftist, anti gun, anti American side of every issue that comes up. They are, as it were, "regular trolls" here at The High Road. Best just to ignore them.
     
  21. Keith Wheeler

    Keith Wheeler Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    692
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Incentive?

    Here's your incentive:

    1) The primary input to GDP (gross domestic product) is population. More people = higher potential GDP.

    2) GDP can be used a proxy for "standard of living".

    3) People don't like it when their "standard of living" declines.

    4) Birth rate in the US (from the CIA fact file): 2.09 children born/woman (2006 est.)

    All major industrialized nations in the world are experiencing low birth rates. Only one, Japan, has chosen not to deal with this issue through immigration. (And Japan is not just experiencing low birth rates, but actually a decline in population.)

    I think that is why it is "allowed" to continue here; many of us agree that the US is no longer a country run by and for the people, but rather by and for the oligarchies. They want cheap labor, and there just isn't enough domestically available.
     
  22. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,369
    Location:
    Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
    Its hard to say whats makes me feel sicker to my stomach on this thread. It could be that our military was driven back on our borders by a group of rag tag drug running invaders :barf: . No sadly that isnt what really gets to me. What really gets to me is to see a group of people that defend their RKBA by using the militia of the people argument attack a group of arm bearing citizens for exercising their constitutional rights in one of their true intended forms :barf: . Incase anybody forgot
     
  23. Keith Wheeler

    Keith Wheeler Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    692
    Location:
    Arkansas
    You mean like this one?

    Yeah, it's so un-American to not want innocents killed in the name of "Deutschland den Deutschen".

    My take on it:

    Private property owners have every right to allow whomever, armed or not, they care to have on their property. Said property owners and guests have every right to defend the property against armed attack. However any and all violations of law should be harshly punished. It's that question of responsibility that our pro-gun, pro-'Merkan right wing friends drone on about.

    If you are going to play such a dangerous and potentially deadly game, you da** sure better follow the law to the letter. No "accidental" shootings of innocents. We are a nation of law and responsibility. Defending the border may very well be a responsible action, however the punishment for illegally crossing our border (or just looking like someone who may have done so) is not death by milita men.

    If these "volunteers" perform within the law and prevent further escalation, then their actions will indeed be honorable. As it stands right now, they are putting themselves in the spotlight, and as such should be prepared for some skepticism and concern.
     
  24. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    11,711
    Location:
    North Idaho
    Neighborhood Watch

    I've met and talked with these guys, including Chris Simcox.

    They are best characterized as a national neighborhood watch. They scrupulously follow the law. They provide eyes and ears for the Border Patrol, who are seriously stretched too thin.

    A bunch of these guys are Korean and Viet Nam vets. Every one of them has a background check done before they're allowed to participate -- at all.

    I don't have the financial freedom to go join them physically, so I send money instead.

    The feds aren't helping. It's up to us now.
     
  25. Manedwolf

    Manedwolf member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,693
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Probably in Mexico, at that. Jorge would extradite them "in th' name of national relations between our countries".
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice