Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard

[razorburn]

You're questioning the willingness of Mexicans to assimilate into American culture, without being able to say what that culture is, besides obeying the law. Tribalism was a word you used a couple times. If they're legal immigrants, you don't have any problem with them doing as they wish. Go ahead and fly flags on their property, assemble peaceably wherever they want, speak spanish, wear jeans slung low, date your daughter, whatever.

 

[Davo]

Arfin great post. I guess that you should follow the rules even if its hard.

 

[longeyes]

You're questioning the willingness of Mexicans to assimilate into American culture, without being able to say what that culture is, besides obeying the law.

Reason, The Law, The Individual.

 

[crazed_ss]

Reason, The Law, The Individual.

I know many reasonable, law-abiding, individuals of Hispanic descent.

Mexican culture isnt some breeding ground for lawlessness. Many of them are devout Catholics and suscribe to the same conservative values that Republicans are always raving about. Religion, tight family unit, hard work, responsibility, etc, etc. Sure they have their bad apples, but what culture doesnt?

 

[crazed_ss]

Is there some compelling reason that residents of our neighbor to the South should NOT play by the rules?

No one is saying they shouldnt.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

It is sad that this argument has devolved into a matter of race. A matter of brown vs. white.

You know why we are getting people from Mexico who happen to be brown?

Because those people can easily cross a border and be in the US. Because they don't do high tech jobs and have money (therefore they cannot become a member of the middle class right off, but instead have to work, possibly for decades). Because there are so many of them, people already in America, regardless of skin colour, creed, faith, etc. can be pushed out of that middle class existence.

Even programs like the H1B visa program (designed to fill the jobs Americans won't do for 25K a year) while better, still are designed to accomplish the same thing massive illegal immigration does now.

Crazed_SS, KW, CassandrasDaddy, whenever you buy into the racism argument, you buy into a scheme designed to turn you into a slave. The corporate class cares not what the colour of your skin is as long as they can steal the value of your labour, and they will do anything they feel necessary to do so.

If it was Russians coming, or French, or Canadians because time had dealt a different hand of cards to us, I'd be against that as well if the overall objective was to get labour so cheap that no one could afford to live without corporate pitance, and government handout.

I'm sure everyone else here arguing against the issue would as well.

 

[crazed_ss]

The corporate class cares not what the colour of your skin is as long as they can steal the value of your labour, and they will do anything they feel necessary to do so.

I 100% agree with this. I believe the business owners are taking advantage of illegal labor to benefit themselves. They dont care about the well-being of these people or how many of them die in the desert trying to get here. They dont care about the workers who are get sick from constantly being in contact with pesticides.. Im against illegal immigration because people are being unfairly exploited.

The thing is, most of the arguments I hear against illegals have nothing to do with the human element. It's people complaining about signs in Spanish, Mexican Flags, and Mariachi music. That tells me a person isnt really concerned with the real problem, they just dont approve of how someone else expresses themselves.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Crazed_SS, KW, CassandrasDaddy, whenever you buy into the racism argument, you buy into a scheme designed to turn you into a slave. The corporate class cares not what the colour of your skin is as long as they can steal the value of your labour, and they will do anything they feel necessary to do so.

Have you read my comments regarding the control of oligarchies and the economics of the situation? If you go back and read those posts, you'll find we are in agreement with your comments on the "corporate class".

On the first, I'm not "buying the racism argument", I'm warning people whose goals I support that their rhetoric may invite racism and counter productive people, like the poster who stated "kill 'em all". I'm advocating responsibility and thoughtful action, with a good dose of vigilance for the scum that will ooze out of the woodwork for the opportunity to beat up on some "darkies". Right now the "kill 'em all" types are considered mostly harmless fringe elements, but all it takes is one charismatic sly one in the bunch and things could be different.

Even well meaning comments can have negative impact. Someone states "Mexicans are increasingly unwilling to become American", which may make it harder for those who are willing to fit in, or perhaps make those who are trying to feel like "what's the point? They don't think I can be American..."

Or are you going to argue that there's no racism in this country?

History is full of examples of a handful of hate-filled extremists rousing popular public opinion to evil deeds in the name of fixing a real problem.

 

[Davo]

Nobody will argue that there is not a history of overt racism in this country. I am arguing that illigal immigration and racism are two different things.
I believe that many illegals have no desire to become American, they are using this country to get what they can-its not that they are afraid they cant become fellow Americans.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Look, the only thing which comes above my sense of patriotism, and loyalty to the US are my religious beliefs, and frankly, I see no conflict of interest between them and my commitment to America.

That being said, for you to point to racism in America being alive and well, and say, "Well, some people who are against illegal immigration are racist" misses the vital point of how this began.

Would it be wrong for volunteers with heat to man the border?

No. As I said before, and stand by it, this is little different from people in their own homes keeping a weapon at the ready to defend themselves and their property.

While I have pointed to the greater issues here, and everyone seems to agree that corporate America is largely behind this travesty, there still is left the fact that Mexicans cross the border, often. And almost always, illegally. We can rangle all day over racism, and "Do Mexicans want to be American or not?"

But that doesn't get to the crux of the matter. Acknowledging that big business on one side, and big government on the other want this to happen doesn't either.

Until the government does it's constitutional duty, and steps up to defend the nation's borders, someone has to do it. And if it must be private citizens acting, so be it.

And, if the Minutemen have decided to take on this role, then I am fully behind them.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

how far

"And, if the Minutemen have decided to take on this role, then I am fully behind them"

how far behind?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

That being said, for you to point to racism in America being alive and well, and say, "Well, some people who are against illegal immigration are racist" misses the vital point of how this began.

Would it be wrong for volunteers with heat to man the border?

Check through my posts. No where have I stated the volunteers are wrong, as a matter of fact you'll find I support their actions.

However, I have also stated that their escalation of action requires, in my mind, an escalation of responsiblity, and I believe that includes the supporters of the Minutemen. When I read fascist crap like "kill 'em all" and none of the most vocal supporters of the armed men heading to border respond to that with even the slightest hint of disgust, then I am concerned.

Maybe I'm sensitive to such ramblings. Maybe the more vocal supporters of the Minutemen feel that those comments aren't worthy of a response. The problem I've seen is that when you ignore such comments, they grow.

The strategic solution is difficult because it connects to some ugly realities of our society, primarily consumerism/corporatism.

Tactically?

Citizens should do what they feel is necessary to respond to the situation, all the while keeping in mind the notions of true freedom that our the foundation of our nation, the risks of "unintended consequences", and the threat of fringe elements usurping honorable goals with hate.

Blundering ahead without concern for the risks and countering the threats is poor judgement, in my opinion.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There is no such thing.... there isn't a uniform "American Culture" in this country. Calling on them to act more "American" is a ridiculous request.

American culture is regional, but saying that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as American culture, and there are certainly lots of people who live here who do not embrace American culture in ANY of its regional forms.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

who is appointed judge?

"American culture is regional, but saying that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as American culture, and there are certainly lots of people who live here who do not embrace American culture in ANY of its regional forms."


and are they required too? i thought part of our culture allowed us to do as we pleased so long as we don't infringe on others

 

[kungfuhippie]

Wow, I got to school, don't post, and about 50 posts later we seam to have reached a consensus. I agree that race has nothing to do with illegal imigration. My comment of carding people (everyone, every race, every color) when they are caught in violation of the law was meanly a way to remove a criminal element from society. I don't advocate stopping people on the street for their papers. I pointed out that I had to live with that, even commented on a bad part of it (corrupt, bribeable cops) I am just saying that supporting the National Guard on the border because that can't be armed is a good thing that hopefully, and from what I've seen so far, good Americans are doing. I'm surprised the mods didn't lock this thing down...

 

[03Shadowbob]

Exactly my sentiments Glockfan .45

 

[Keith Wheeler]

American culture is regional, but saying that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as American culture, and there are certainly lots of people who live here who do not embrace American culture in ANY of its regional forms.

Um, so since I'm I live in Arkansas, to be more American I should stop being Jewish and convert to southern Baptist?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

and are they required too? i thought part of our culture allowed us to do as we pleased so long as we don't infringe on others

True, but there are good and bad choices to be made as to which cultures are most compatible with our own. It would be most unwise, for an extreme example, to stop all immigration, except that from the Middle East, increasing that ten fold. I hope we can agree that this kind of policy would essentially constitute national suicide. Once you acknowledge that there are good and bad choices to be made, we then have to ask if allowing a tidal wave of Mexicans, who typically express zero interest in adopting any of the regional forms of American culture, is a wise decision. By wise, I mean one which will result in long term peaceful coexistence and prosperity within our borders.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

we then have to ask if allowing a tidal wave of Mexicans, who typically express zero interest in adopting any of the regional forms of American culture

Again, that's an open question. Some make this claim, others do not. We've both presented anectdotal evidence that some Mexicans strongly want to be "American", while others do not. Perhaps discretion is the better part of valor, but come out and say "we then have to ask if allowing a tidal wave of Mexicans, who may not have an interest...".

And still that "regional form of American culture"....how long has "Mexican" food been a part of American culture?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Um, so since I'm I live in Arkansas, to be more American I should stop being Jewish and convert to southern Baptist?

You mean America does not have a long established, peacefully coexisting, Jewish subculture that's considered uniquely American anywhere within our borders?

 

[longeyes]

I know many reasonable, law-abiding, individuals of Hispanic descent.

So do I.

It's not about race. Repeat: not about race.

And it's not Americans who keep referring to "la raza." Tribalism is about putting blood above law.

But anyone can be, in various ways, a tribalist.

 

[longeyes]

how long has "Mexican" food been a part of American culture?

We all like ethnic food (I'm guessing). No one is worried about ethnic and cultural idiosyncrasies.

What we are worried about is sanguinary nepotism, regional courts based on religion or ethnicity with unequal representation, political expectations by ethnic bloc, etc.

 

[kungfuhippie]

Um, so since I'm I live in Arkansas, to be more American I should stop being Jewish and convert to southern Baptist?

No, you're part of the "Jewish Arkansas Culture" a vital role in Arkansas, God forbid everyone there become Southern Baptist which is different than the New York City Jewish Culture. I and most others here arn't saying to imigrants that they sahould forget their past and their native culture, just that being in a different country requires them to ado0pt certain new traits (like speaking english, putting trash in the trash can and not the side of the road. Try celebrating the Independence of our country too, not just the independence of their homeland. It happens to their kids anyway, the kids want to be like everybody else and so they act more and more like the status quo with every generation.

And so what does this have to do with the Minute Men?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

You mean America does not have a long established, peacefully coexisting, Jewish subculture anywhere within our borders, that's considered uniquely American?

"Subculture" and "regional" are not the same things. I'll argue that there is a long established, peacefully coexisting Hispanic subculture within our borders, considered uniquely American. Tex-Mex anyone? How many "old time" cowboys were Latino? What do you need besides architecture, food, naming conventions, and history to have a "subculture"?

Ah, but then you'll make the "peaceful" claim. So since there have been issues with Mexico and Mexicans in the past, that aspect of our national history isn't a uniquely American subculture? So the "Native American" tribes that we have a violent history with are not an American subculture?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

like speaking english, putting trash in the trash can and not the side of the road

Welp fellar, I figgur a body ought to splain that to some of muh redneck neighbors. Yup, I'm fixin do that riaght now.

Again, anectdotal. The Latinos I now who don't speak much English are embarassed by that fact, and try to learn as quickly as they can. Then you have my best friend, a fellow of German origin, who complains loudly that "they won't learn to speak English" but then goes on with great nostalgia about how his parents still spoke German when he was young. That folks is NOT a question of "protecting American culture", but blatant racism. It takes time for subcultures to be assimilated. Every group of immigrants has faced this sort of problem. Italians. Chinese. Irish. German. They were all accused of not wanting to be "American".

I live in a semi-rural area, mostly populated by "salt of the earth" white folks. You wanna see trash on the side of the road? I am still amazed these people haven't discovered that they can actually put it in a trash can and it will be hauled away. Nope, they gotta throw it out the window, dump in in the ditch, blast, *burn* it in a ditch. We had a fire call not too long ago, a small mattress tossed in the ditch and set on fire. Or maybe that's just a "regional culture" thing?

Try celebrating the Independence of our country too, not just the independence of their homeland.

Those are not mutually exclusive. And you know sometimes fun holidays get added to the American calendar. Or maybe we should add St. Patrick's day (and the method of celebrating same) to our list of "un-American activities".