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VZ.58 Club:

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Maverick223, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. sturmgewehr

    sturmgewehr Member

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    Thanks, I'm glad you like it. :)
     
  2. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Cool beans, Uncle Mike. Gotta keep us updated if you manage to perfect the 20rnd. magazine. I have an idea for one myself, but I need to place a few parts orders and start tinkering to see if it will work...I too will keep you guys posted on the progress.

    :)
     
  3. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Thanks Shane333, based on your post I called Mark over at Waffen Werks and placed an order today. They have 9 guns left and no indication whether more will be ordered in the future.

    For $ 650.00 the offering from Waffen Werks as of the date of this post is:

    The gun dressed in the impregnated wood look
    One 30 round magazine
    A bayonet lug attachment on front
    A muzzle break (pinned)
    A sling
    and the black finish baked on (some type of coating)

    Mark states that they test fire the guns prior to shipment to avoid any surprises.

    Act now guys, I cannot wait to receive and shoot the gun!
     
  4. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Great news, Benny...make sure and give us an update when it arrives.

    :)
     
  5. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Well it is in... Good news and Weird news.

    First off the Waffen Werks gun looks great, and during a feed and extraction exercise the bullets go in and come out with ease. Ready to test fire and sight in tomorrow.

    I ended up winning an auction on gunbroker for what I thought was a CZ USA VZ58 but what I got was a Sporter with a receiver stamped CAI. So now instead of getting a steal on the gun I think I actually paid too much!!! Ahyhow check this out and let me know what you think.

    During a feed and extraction exercise (prior to shooting) I already am seeing an issue. The bullet head is dragging/catching on the feed lip and it is gashing the bullet head from tip to base. Sometime the bullet wont feed with the sling shot method and you have to drawback again and release till it takes the bullet into the chamber. The feed lip is different in design than that of my Waffen Werks VZ58.

    Also I have noted the following:

    There is a muzzle cap on the end of the barrel, I thought ALL Century builds had the slant tip (AK muzzle break)

    The safety is the same as the VZ58 military version, in other words forward is to fire

    And no bayonet lug....

    What sort of build did I buy?

    IMG00394-20101217-2053.gif

    IMG00395-20101217-2054.gif

    IMG00396-20101217-2054.gif
     
  6. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Bennybone, are the photos of the suspected CAI build or the WW rifle? If it is the former, it isn't a Century rifle because D-Technik makes the good stuff (they make the CZ-USA receivers) and from what I have seen they parkerize all of their rifles (to be perfectly honest I like their finish better...but not everything else). Judging by your description, and the photo (if that is the correct one) the safety is the same as my D-Technik (which is still flawless in operation BTW), same story with the muzzle device (just a barrel extension). I am not aware of any of the CZ-USA (or D-Technik of any kind) rifles having a bayonet lug...I know that mine doesn't. Either way, it isn't something that I am super concerned about, because I am unlikely to be in need of a pointy stick on my rifle. :p

    Now as far as your feeding problem; I am wondering if you have a California model because it clearly has a "sporter"/thumbhole stock and you say the feed lips are different. If this is the case, it was designed for single stack 10rnd. magazines. The conversion to double stack requires a new bolt (as found here), and the proper magazines (which you already have). There might be more, but that is all that comes to mind at the moment. Might I be so nosy as to inquire about the price?

    Anyway, good luck on both of the new rifles! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2010
  7. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Maverick, I was hoping you were on :)

    The photos are of the mystery gun, the serial number begins with VZ58xxx which I thought was the definitive marker of the receiver being made in Czech's factory...

    However the trigger is metal which I know to be a marker for Century's builds.

    Additionally the receiver has CAI Georgia VT imprinted directly below D-Technik.

    The receiver is NOT parkerized.

    I am really confused about this gun. It could be a California version but it came from a shop in Tennesse....

    The feed ramp appears to have an additional cut edge that the Waffen Werks gun doesn't have. Other than that it is exactly the same.

    Price was 399.99. I went from being on Cloud 9 thinking I got a steal on a VZ58 to feeling like I overpaid for a Century build.

    BTW the barrel in the chamber looks brand new (as in not previous mil-surp) I mean SPARKLING.... Not like the Waffen Werks.

    Help.:banghead:
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2010
  8. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Thanks, but I don't know how much help I am.

    I see what you mean about the "CAI-Georgia VT", though CAI uses US made receivers on all the VZ-2000s that I have seen. You are correct about the trigger (should be polymer), but the bbl extension is atypical because CAI used 16in. barrels that didn't require such. Also the SN sounds right (for a D-Technik) as well. Perhaps you have one that they imported complete...hopefully someone more knowledgeable and well versed in CZs (like armoredman...hint, hint) will chime in and uncover the mystery behind this particular rifle. Either way, i'd say you did well for $400USD, just because it says the word "D-Technik", and heck I have seen the rifles that CAI cobbles together go for more than that.

    :)
     
  9. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Stumped ya did I ???

    I can't explain it but I am hoping someone can ... What is also strikingly strange to me is that the serial number is 101. Seems awful low to me being this late in the game.

    The bolts between the two are very similar just a few contours towards the back are different.
     
  10. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Bennybone, you have an early Century import.

    They were the original importers way back when of neutered Vz58 "Sporters".
     
  11. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Nalioth-

    Thanks for the advisement, do you know anything more about CAI's import process for these guns? If they imported the rifles ahead of Czechpoint and TGI then this gun would be from.... 20XX?

    I am making a BIG assumption here, but is it possible that the trigger , sear , piston, mags are the only Century parts on the gun?

    I have Zero experience with the VZ2008 model but aren't those receivers killed err I mean milled by Century and does the model VZ2008 bear the name anywhere on the gun?

    All I can tell you is that the bullet marring is no more (I believe gun just needed to be fired) and that I haven't had ANY FTF's and that the rifle shoots "lights out" in terms of accuracy.

    The Waffen Werks gun is experiencing multiple FTF's - its quite frustrating when the premium gun is getting outpaced by the lesser....

    Are any of you current owners having to file down the receivers feed lips and polish them?

    I have taken the gun apart 4 times cleaned , oiled and dried parts and still getting multiple FTF on a single magazine.

    BB
     
  12. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    nalioth, glad that you were able to shed a little light on that. I figured that must have been the case, but haven't heard of one. Do you happen to know what type of trigger group is in that rifle (the one completely redeigned by Cechpoint or the CAI abortion)?

    Bennybone, either way, I think you did quite well. If it turns out to have the CAI trigger group I would look into a suitable replacement (in part or in whole), but other than that I believe you are good to go.

    :)
     
  13. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Century did not sell 922r compliant imported Vz58s. They only sold the neutered ones.

    Someone purchased your gun from Century and converted it on their own (with parts from wherever).
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  14. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I don't know how I missed this part of your post the first go around (not feeling well at the moment, so you'll have to forgive my fogginess), but that is peculiar. I haven't any experience with a WW, but they are touted as well-made, reliable builds. I'd be inclined to ship it back and let them fix it for you, it doesn't appear to be a rifle that is easy to work on; more importantly you bought it new with the agreement that it would perform as advertised, that didn't pan out, so let them make it right. Glad to hear that the CAI conglomeration is working well, still might be a good idea to look into the parts manufacturers to make sure that it is 922r compliant.

    FWIW, my D-Technik/TGI rifle has been flawless straight out of the box...surprisingly accurate as well. My understanding is that most any of the VZ.58 clones are at the very least reliable. Heck, the only problems that I recall hearing regarding CAI built rifles (the VZ.2008) is a trigger that is prone to double and accuracy is less than spectacular.

    :)
     
  15. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Ditto, I have not had to do any work on mine for reliabilty. D-Technik, now known as Czech Small Arms.
     
  16. armed hiker

    armed hiker Member

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    New Victim for VZ ownership.

    Okay you guys drove me over the edge. I have been looking at the VZ58 for a while and started looking closer this winter. After looking around and reading everything I could find on these guns I decided I needed one.

    Sooo.... options
    1. build
    I see parts kits that seem okay, and plentiful, this way I get just what I am after. chrome lined barrel, bayonet mount, muzzle device.

    2. buy
    A couple of options here.

    VZ2000 by century, to be honest this is probably a great option, low entry cost and most of what I am looking for.

    Czech. built parts gun, more costly than the vz2000 buy it is not a century. I have just heard too many bad things about this company to trust them. ... Yet.

    I hate options some times because now I need to make a decision.

    1. Parts kit
    yeah baby, sounds fun. just my configuration and everything. But.....
    Receivers are pricy , and after pricing out all the parts the overall costs kept climbing . You can easily buy a pre-built for less money and most importantly...When will I get the time to build it?

    2. VZ2000
    Its a century ..... well that really cannot be that bad can it? I almost cannot go on a gun forum without someone bashing them. Even the guys on the high point forums often look down on them! I held one and liked it but had issues like the safety seemed backwards from how I would think it should be. plus the front sights were all at about 11 o'clock ( I have been told this is on purpose??). Green mountain barrel is not a problem, I used to drill for them and know they do a good job. I would like a chrome lined barrel on a gun I will feed lots of surplus ammo in.... did I mention it's a century?
    Okay maybe the next one.

    3. D-technik
    Pricy but it has enough going for it I think this will be close. I don't plan on using the bayonet for spear practice, I hear the guns don't really need a muzzle brake. Buy you know what I would like them ( don't try and make sense of it .. I can't).

    After watching a few on I'mbroker (GB) I see that Czechpoint is having a sale!
    Okay I am in! just a few more days until the sale starts and I will line up my FFL to receive it. After lurking about a bit I feel that not only will I get a great gun I will be dealing with one of the good guys (Czechpoint has a great reputation) . Everything is great ........ and then. This thread continued :banghead:

    What The #@$%#.. who the :cuss: is Waffen Werks!
    You have to be kidding me. lets see...
    Czech. build parts czech
    chrome lined barrel czech
    bayonet mount czech
    muzzle brake czech
    killer sale price czech
    good reputation czech

    Okay so now there is only three left at Waffen Werks. great guys to do business with.

    So now I only need to
    build a parts gun
    buy a Century to see for myself
    buy a gun from Czechpoint (support the guys you want to stay around!)

    Man I need another job

    Is it here yet???????
     
  17. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Woah I had to read your post a few times but heckuva recap ;)

    I am a new guy as well and all I can say is this has been hella fun researching and buying and shooting these gun(s).

    I MUST SAY I OVER REACTED ON THE CENTURY GUN THAT I GOT FROM GUNBROKER AND THE JAMMING ON THE WAFFEN WERKS MODEL.

    I just kinda got wrapped up in it all and didn't do enough research on what I had and taking time to load the magazine properly. I called Century today and verified that the gun I bought was made at the factory (D-Technik), these guns were imported and sold prior to Century launching its VZ2008 model. I then called the gun shop who sold me the gun on Gunbroker and was told that it was brought in on the purchase of a private collection of unfired "safe queens" from an older gentleman. So essentially it was new and stored for the last 4 years. What a treat and bonus I think!!!

    All in all it worked out in the end. I have sold the Waffen Werks and I am keeping the imported early model "neutered" Century. Alot of decision making involved 10 vrs 30 round mags, muzzle brake vrs no muzzle break, metal trigger vrs plastic trigger.

    I just gelled with the single stack sporter, I was amazed at the accuracy with known lesser quality ammo (Herters 154 gr soft points).

    I will update photos when my Zahal kit arrives and when I settle on a muzzle brake/optics/mounts.

    Here is the targets from my shooting over the weekend (easy decision huh?) :cool:

    WAFFEN WERKS, from 30 yards laying prone, iron sights at "Universal setting"

    DSC04680.gif

    CAI VZ58, from 30 yards laying prone, iron sights at "3 setting"

    DSC04679.gif

    WAFFEN WERKS, seated position with rest, iron sights set to "3" (low group) and then "5" (high upper right group)

    DSC04682.gif

    CAI VZ58, from 100 yards seated position with rest, iron sights set to "3" ( right grouping) and then kept the sights at "3" and aimed left of black (middle/left grouping).

    DSC04681.gif
     
  18. armed hiker

    armed hiker Member

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    Bennybone
    Lol yes there may be too many decisions to make. As much as I hear bad about century in the VS platform they seem to do the best. As well you have the Czech receiver so some of the problems are not going to be there. Do you have the Czech barrel? I hear green mountain makes the century barrels now but I wonder if they did when yours was built.

    Either way it really does not matter as it looks like yo have a good shooter in the century. I hope my Waffen werks turns out to be do as well.
    I have been told the herters is repackaged Wolf just Cabelas store brand, These guns seem to like it.

    I look forward to hearing your impressions of the Zahal parts I too have been looking at them and wondering. I like the idea of the t-pod but just read some issues with the magazine length. People seem to speak well of the hand guards and grip.
     
  19. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    His was built entirely in the former Czechoslavakia.

    As he's described, it's an original Czech import with a slimline mag well and proprietary "sporting" magazine. It's Czech-made from muzzle to butt stock.
     
  20. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Welcome to THR, armed hiker!

    I have to recommend any of the several D-Technik built VZ.58s (imprted by TGI, CZ-USA, or Czechpoint) despite not having any significant experience with any others. Mine has been fantastic, and despite some nice features offered by other manufacturers (like bayonet lugs and a threaded muzzle) there are too many lacking features (like a chrome lined bbl or quality fire control group) for my taste, as well as several unfavorable reviews (mostly regarding the Century VZ.2008 builds). As far as a build goes, it is what you make it. Do it well with good parts and I have no doubt that it will be as good or better as a D-Technik complete rifle import...whether or not you'll save any money I can't say. Uncle Mike would be a great person to ask, as he did just that. He has quite a bit of experience with other rifles (I hear he specializes in AKs :evil:) so he should be able to give an accurate difficulty comparison and might even be willing to share some tips and tricks he learned along the way.

    :)
     
  21. armed hiker

    armed hiker Member

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    Nalioth
    I see that now, sounds like a great way to make a century gun is to just have them import the competition lol.

    Sounds like Bennybone did well with his. I am a little concerned with the accuracy he saw from his waffen werks. I expect to fine tune the sights but I don't see what has caused the gun to shoot worse than a similar build from the same company. Muzzle device?

    maverick223
    Thanks ! Yes I have been researching these guns for a while and your advice is certainly conventional wisdom. The waffenwerks guns Should be the best of both worlds. D-Technik built and with a bayonet mount and muzzle device. I will find out soon they were due to ship some time around now.

    Whatever it is I will play with it a bit to get to try out the gun. If things go well I see Czechpoint is offering receivers, kits are not $50 anymore but Building has its own rewards. I don't think I have seen a non factory kit for sale yet, people must like them.
     
  22. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I agree, it should afford both good workmanship and better features. Make sure and give us an update as to how well it performs when it arrives (I think, and hope, Bennybone's was just the one that got away).

    :)
     
  23. armed hiker

    armed hiker Member

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    I will for sure, man that wait is killing me. This is why I purchase face to face.
     
  24. Bennybone

    Bennybone Member

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    Keep in mind that I was shooting two different styles of the gun, Military Stock vrs Sporter Stock AND that the wind was blowing at the time of shooting.

    I recorded the shots up near the target on video and that is what made the decision for me - For this reason.

    The Century VZ58 placed more shots into the same/adjacent holes more consistenly than the WW VZ58. There was less here and there with the Century gun.

    Is it the muzzle brake? Possibly, this is a debateable subject as the ballastics of the bullet are effected by the concentric forces of muzzle gas as the bullet is launched out the end of the barrel. I think that you should research other owners photos of their target practice and concentrate on finding photos of owners with the muzzle brake, if you start to see a trend post the links and get back to us as that would start to lend credibility to the notion.

    Shooting has so many variables the least of which is bullet type/make , you see this many a time when guys/gals are hunting down different ammo types to see what the gun likes... I don't mean to alarm you about the accuracy of the VZ58 I just wanted to lend for discussion to this "CLUB" why I chose one gun over the other.

    After all it could be worse, it could be less accurate than an AK - Har Har Har...

    I am curious to know how many other "neutered" Century imports are out there, not that I am disillusioned to think that this gun is worth 3 - 4 times it value as a collectable but I am curious nonetheless as nearly two weeks of daily research didn't uncover another owner mentioning that they have one.

    I am going to shoot and modify the heck out of it anyways, what with it being that I paid what I did for it I may as well enjoy the heck out of it.

    BB
     
  25. armed hiker

    armed hiker Member

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    Bennybone
    Lol... you are killing me. You do know I will be doing this, lets see what we find.
    anyone want to post up reference materials?

    It was plain to see the difference in your two targets. I am assuming that you had used the same ammo on the same day and in similar conditions. That's good stuff for comparisons. Now we just need you to remove the barrel extension off of the century and add a similar muzzle brake and see if you start shooting around corners.:what:

    I don't think many would have made a different choice than you given that it seems the you do not have a "neutered" century but actually have a high end VZ58 that just happens to have a century logo on it. kind of like a double minted coin or other rare occurrences.

    Video?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010

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