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VZ.58 Club:

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Maverick223, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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    And photo in daylight.
    I like the new stock a lot, maybe Ill have to add some cycling-tape for winter..
     

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  2. jda70

    jda70 Member

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    Hi guys. Nice to see other people here into the vz.58 aka Scythe.

    I picked up a VZ2008 recently. I don't have a full picture of it yet because
    1. I training to be a gun smith so
    2. The gun is currently getting bead blasted and Parkerized.
    This is a personal preference. All the CAI rifle I know of have a
    form of Teflon Powder Coating. Nothing wrong with that. Just not my personal
    choice.

    I did come up with a solution to making the Wood Impregnated Plastic (WIP)
    furniture look a bit nicer by sanding it and applying at least 3 coats of Tru-Oil.
    I suspect that Danish Oil could work as well.

    Here is an images of the (W I P) Stock furniture.

    It was Old New Stock ( NOS ) from Czech Republic.
    It was dull and bad molding seams from the forming process. But some
    sandpaper, a Dremel and Tru-Oil fixed it up.

    Also I'm attempting to make a 20 round magazine. So I was really happy to find this thread.
    I really find the 30 round mags get in my way when shooting.
    I have an old partially damaged mag I'm using right now as a test subject.
    I'll post images of that later.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  3. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Welcome to the forum and the VZ Club, jda70! Please do report back with photos and details from your exploits with your rifle and magazine modifications.

    P.S.: Glad you found the magazine tutorial useful, but magazine parts are getting scarce, so you may have to find another solution for the floorplate attachment...so keep that in mind before you start chopping up good magazines.

    :)
     
  4. jda70

    jda70 Member

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    I was just going to remove the extra magazine material that allows
    for 30 rounds, shorten the Spring and reuse the original parts.
     
  5. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    The only problem with that plan is the floorplate has nowhere to attach to and from all accounts the aluminum isn't very malleable and therefore prone to cracking if you attempt to bend it for an attachment point. That said, you might have some luck doing so if you anneal the lower portion of the magazine body prior to bending. I would still proceed with caution and advise you to make the first cut generous so you have a bit of excess to play with if the first attempt doesn't go too well (so you can make another attempt without making the magazine shorter than you would like).

    :)
     
  6. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Annealing VZ 58 mags when shortening.

    When I shortened one of my 30's to a 20 (actually 21) round capacity I trimmed the mag to length and then made several cuts along the ribs as deep as I wanted the flange to be wide after bending. I then used a propane torch and heated the area I was working on as hot as I could get it, then plunged it into ice water. I thought that the paint would've burned or flaked off, but all it did was make it a little darker.

    After quenching the mag body, I started making my bends. After breaking off a small piece of flange by trying to bend it 90 degrees all at once, I found that it was best to do each bend in steps. Anneal, bend it about
    30 degrees, then anneal again and bend it some more until you get it to 90 degrees. I used vice grips to do the actual bending.

    I considered retempering in an oven over about twelve hours, but I decided the aluminum was still hard enough, especially since it's supported by the floor plate.

    Keep in mind that I used an el-cheapo propane torch to apply the heat to my mag. If you use a hotter burning gas you're heading into uncharted territory.
     
  7. jda70

    jda70 Member

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    Thanks guys.
    I know it would come down to annealing the Aluminum.
    That was my only concern.
    Can I get a better explanation of the measurements?
    I read the tutorial a few times but I just want to make sure
    before I cut I got the Locations and Numbers right.

    Thanks again for any help.
     
  8. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Swampman, PM responded to, also you tempered when you heated and then quenched it the first time, annealing is done by heating it up to a high temperature and slowly allowing it to cool to ambient. I would recommend heating it to a fairly high temperature (around 600-800F but well below melting) with a torch and wrapping it with a heat resistant material (clay actually works quite well, but fiberglass insulation would probably be the easiest to procure and least costly suitable material) to insulate it whilst cooling. An oven might work too, but I'm uncertain whether it would get the material hot enough initially so you might still have to start with a torch...additionally you would also be softening the feed-lips, which is something I would want to avoid.

    :)
     
  9. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    jda70, with regards to the measurements, I double checked post no. 578-579 for details and noted that I used the caliper on some of the measurements, but unfortunately not the finished magazine body, but the pieces that were cut off (which would vary due to the kerf of the cutting disk used to remove the material, additionally depending upon which magazine this measurement was taken {I modified several} this measurement may be inaccurate because I may have made more than one cut to remove additional material as needed). That having been said if you are using a 4.5" cutting disk (approx. 3/32" kerf/thickness) or something thinner (like a Dremel disk) then the measurements of 1.780-2.312in. (short and long side respectively) should be safe ones to follow (though you may have to remove additional material depending upon which magazine these measurements were taken). Unfortunately I'm out of town at present, but I should return home either tomorrow or Saturday and will verify my measurements (this time on the "good side"/used portion of the magazine body) for all interested. It should also be noted that I made the magazines either 20.5 or 21rnds rather than a true 20, so plan accordingly.

    :)
     
  10. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    It's worth noting that most aluminum anneals differently than steel, and re-hardens slowly (days after cooling). The rate of quench from the annealing temperature is not particularly important since the hardening copper won't fully redissolve into the aluminum for hours/days.

    TCB
     
  11. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    TCB, my understanding, though limited (I have a far better understanding of the properties of steel) is that tempering/hardening of aluminum alloys is also a bit different than steel. In short it's more temperamental and tends to vary quite a bit depending upon the alloying elements, so it might be a good idea to perform the bend under mild-moderate heat.

    :)
     
  12. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    More on Heat Treating Aluminum Alloys

    Originally posted by Maverick223
    I read up a bit on annealing aluminum before I started. Since I couldn't ascertain the exact alloy used by the Czechs when manufacturing the magazines I decided to assume that it was generic "Aircraft Grade" aluminum. These alloys are generally "Non-heat treatable" and are normally hardened by cold working, just like the brass used in cartridge cases. The actual rate of cooling or "quench time" has little or no effect as long as the alloy has been heated enough to ensure that the metal has re-crystallized.

    The old standard method for annealing cartridge brass was to stand your cases up in a pan of water with about half the case length submerged and then heat the exposed portion until the brass was just starting to glow pink. At that point you tip the cases over into the water and you're done. Unlike wheel weight lead or steel, the quick quenching doesn't have any effect on the ultimate hardness of the metal, its just quicker and more convenient.

    This article explains it much better than I can.
    https://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php
     
  13. jda70

    jda70 Member

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    http://www.metalreference.com/INFO_Aluminum.html

    The difficulty in making the tabs on the sides so you can
    use the existing floor plate is NOT bending it past its
    "Minimum Bend Radius" and having the right amount of material
    other wise it will crack and or break off.

    Heating to 650-700° and then cooling in air to 500° is the most basic
    method I know of for making it soft for working.

    Also Aluminum doesn't change color when heated.
    You over heat and it melts. That's why you can't just
    apply a torch to it and guesstimate.

    I read though you can cover the surface with a layer of Soap
    and apply heat until it turns Black and it's hot enough to bend.
    I have never tried that but it's interesting.

    So what I believe is that when making the tabs there needs to be
    a good inch or so of material there, then use a Jig with small pin or Bending Pliers to
    make the bend and then trim the excess aluminum off.

    When you look at a factory mag you'll notice 2 ( 1 on each side ) notches
    in front and back of the tab. There are 4 on a magazine. They have to be there I think
    to prevent cracking the body while bending the Tabs for the floor plate.

    That's what on my mind and I'm not a professional. :D
     
  14. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Swampman, I will yield to your research on the matter, as I've done none (with regard to this project anyway).

    jda70, some welding shops sell temperature indicating crayons (the only one I've used goes by the brand name: Tempstiks) that are very useful for this sort of thing...though an experienced metal worker can guesstimate the temperature by experience. Another option is the use an infrared thermometer as you needn't be exact in your measurement. Just make sure to keep it well under 1000F (typical melting point of average aluminum alloys are about 1200F, and most become semi-solid at around 1050-1100F) and you should be safe.

    P.S.: I just returned home, so I will take some detailed measurements later this afternoon after I get settled in.

    :)
     
  15. 68wj

    68wj Member

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    Added a side rail from Czechpoint. It is a Century receiver but no issues that I can tell. The hardest part was finding the right tap and bit, then getting the receiver square on a drill press.

    Customer service note, the mount slipped by QC with an issue. Dan at Czechpoint took quick care of it and made everything right.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. jda70

    jda70 Member

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    Hi
    Nice one 68wj.

    You must have one of the VZ2008 made before Czech Point
    Sued C.A.I. After that Century had to change the receiver
    and that side rail has to have some metal removed from the
    top and bottom because it's too wide now.

    Can you still see the iron sights with that Scope mount?
     
  17. 68wj

    68wj Member

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    No, can't see the sights. This is the low-pro version that just barely clears the dust cover. With that cheek weld, I wouldn't want the optic any higher.
     
  18. FlyingScot

    FlyingScot Member

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    Just ordered a VZ2008 from PSA

    So not quite a member but should be one shortly. Looking forward to some time with this rifle. Now to wade through the thread and learn some more :cool:
     
  19. StephaneColibri

    StephaneColibri Member

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    I got mine in May :3

    Her name's Milada...
     

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  20. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    I've considered putting a side rail on my VZ, but being a cheapskate, I'd like to use one from one of my Saiga 12's.

    Is anyone aware of a reason that this wouldn't work? I'm never going to mount any optics on a Saiga 12, so the rail is just extra weight and bulk on that weapon. I'd like to use it on the VZ... unless someone knows of a compelling reason not to.
     
  21. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    What camo pattern is that?
     
  22. 68wj

    68wj Member

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    Top ejection? I don't know what your mount looks like but that is a thought.

    Sighted mine in yesterday. Realized that with the throw arm tightened, the mount would still slide off the rail. There were no instructions but I figured out how to compress the clamp spring and tighten the "castle nut". It took two notches to get tight, but I will keep an eye on it to make sure a 3rd isn't needed later. A 4 inch group with a 5 moa dot and Tula FMJ is good enough for me.
     
  23. FlyingScot

    FlyingScot Member

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    Vz2008 arrived from PSA

    I'd be curious how I can tell year of mfg/batch? Serial no. is just under 10,000.

    Well, the rifle arrived and I have to say this appears to be much more finely crafted than I expected. Good weight, handy size, and almost no tool marks. Will be shooting next weekend. It came bone dry, pin on folding stock is stiff, and changing the muzzle brake only required a dowel for leverage and lubricant. 5 mags are like new, sling is garbage so will get another one, and will be tying on some paracord for my cheek. Beaver barf furniture is in good shape. All in all a great deal I'd reckon.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  24. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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  25. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    For your research on aluminum heat treatment I suggest searching for "solution treating" rather than "annealing" and "age hardening" and "precipitation treatment" rather than "tempering". Otherwise you are just going to find anacdodtes from confused people and become even more confused.

    You want to solution treat at 310 to 400C for 30 min to 4 hours. Cooldown should be less than 20C per hour until it cools to ~290. Temp control sholuld be about +/- 5C. Internal eutectic melting gives very little sign and will severely weaken the aluminum.

    Age hardening is even more dependant on the exact alloy and can require being held at temp for days.
    Mike
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014

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