VZ.58 Club:

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@ ID-shooting

My vz-2008 has the left side markings and squared off disconnector. Tag indicates it was made this past April. Reports about the new century's have so far been good but no one seems to know how it does it, or if it is really a permanent fix as effective as the tab. I recall reading about a dry fire test you can perform to check for it, but now I can't find it.

I haven't put in nearly enough rounds to put in my own observations, but it would help if I could find any ammo locally! :fire:
 
I took delivery of another VZ2008 a few weeks back and despite the fact that the serial number is more than 4000 places higher than my first one (first one was VZ08PM-0020XX and the second is
VZ08PM-0064XX), the newer rifle's bore slugged .308" just like the older one.

I've read that some of the "older" VZ2008's were made with .308 bores but that Century had started putting correct bore diameter barrels on the more recent production rifles. If the results of my bore slugging are typical, I'd have to say that that information is incorrect.
Not that the .308 bores have caused any problems for me, 1970 surplus Yugoslavian Igman ammo shoots into @ 2.5" groups from either rifle with no pressure signs whatsoever on the brass.

Speaking of brass, has anyone else noticed how well the Czech rifles treat fired cases? After dealing with brass mangled by my PSL and various AK's and trying everything from automotive door moulding around the ejection port to extractor mods in an effort to keep cases from being dinged, the clean, undented VZ cases are like a breath of fresh air!
I'm not positive (not having kept any written records on brass "growth" in AK's), but it also seems like I have to do a lot less trimming of brass fired from the Czech rifles compared to the stuff fired from AK's.
Has anyone else noticed this about the way their VZ's treat fired brass?
 
Ive noticed a big difference in mine as well compared to my Egyptian MAADI AKM variant. Not only is the brass not dinged up in the VZ, but it doesnt have the "bulge" near the head that my AKM does with conmercial brass cased round. (reminds me of how my old SMLE Enfield used to bulge brass a bit). I suspect the chamber tolerances are looser on the AKM when compared to the VZ. Whatever reason, it makes it a lot easier to resize when loading, I can just neck size target rounds for the VZ, where I was always afraid not to full length size for the AKMS, due to the dings and swells and general non-uniformity of the brass that was shot in it. Now the AKMS did just fine with steel case ammo, but one time I bought a whole 1000 round case of PMC "target" ammo for it and before I had run a half mag, I noticed the AK was shoving the next in line bullet down into the neck of the brass! Lucky it didnt blow the cover off it. My SKS shot the PMC just fine, but I dumped out the entire case on the bench and crimped in every bullet, just for safety sake. Hmm, Im curious now how a chamber casting of both the VZ and the MAADI would compare. Maybe ill order some and make a cast. I have an old '09 Mauser I need to cast anyway.
 
Speaking of brass, has anyone seen a brass catcher for the VZ anywhere? or maybe made one that works well? Im not finding as many cases as I would like when doing drills, and with the general shortages now days, Im saving all brass cases, boxer or berdan. If I could get enough jacketed bullets, I might even consider picking up a carbide sizer and try range pick up steel case.:eek:
 
Eric_the_Red said:
Hello all,
New member here! Usually you can find me as "anythingmilitarybuff" on surplusrifleforum.com and gunboards.com or "Eric_the_Red" on other sites. :)

Thought I'd post this here since there seems to be a reasonable amount of discussion about these rifles.

I've been searching high and low for a Czechpoint (D-Technik) Vz.58 Rifle. Looking for the following specifics:

- Excellent or new-in-box condition.
- Must have the "TGI KNOX TN" or "GIA KNOX TN" markings rather than the WAFFEN WERKS stamp.
- Must have the "US PATENT No. 7,373,868" markings rather than the "PATENT PENDING" stamp.

Is this something that you guys have come across from time to time?

I'm willing to pay top-dollar for an example that meets these criteria and have a new-in-box Colt AR-15 A2 (Model 6520) available for trade. Unfortunately, nobody's made an offer yet.

Any leads?

Thanks in advance!

- Eric
Click to expand...

As someone that owns that exact style of rifle (which I'm not wanting to trade at present), I'm curious what makes these attributes so important/noteworthy/valuable? Don't get me wrong I like mine, but I've shot others (and handled many more) and honestly can't tell a great deal of difference (though I have more experience with my own than any other example), save for CAI copies which, though I don't hold them in as high of regard, aren't necessarily bad, just different.

P.S.: I hope your search yields the rifle you're seeking.

P.S.II: Sorry for being away for so long...been very busy for the past month or so. Also, I want to extend a warm welcome to all of the new members to the club! :)
 
Originally posted by: coalbed
might even consider picking up a carbide sizer and try range pick up steel case.
Click to expand...
Don't bother, there's no need for carbide dies when loading steel cases.
I've loaded many thousands of steel cases in my regular steel RCBS 7.62x39 dies with no measurable wear.
Unless you forget to lube your cases there won't be any appreciable steel on steel contact.
The case slides in and out of the die on a film of lube.
Kiwi Mink Oil seems to work best for me, its cheap and you can use a good bit without getting oil dents in your cases.
The steel Berdan cases also deprime a lot easier than the brass ones tend to, particularly when using the hydraulic method.

Good luck finding or making a workable brass catcher, with the "straight up and forward" ejection pattern it'll be hard to come up with something that isn't really obtrusive and/or more of a pain than its worth.

The best solution I've come up with is to do most of my VZ shooting in a covered, concrete floored range.
Now if I could just figure out a way to keep from busting the overhead light bulbs.... :uhoh:
 
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Swampman said:
Now if I could just figure out a way to keep from busting the overhead light bulbs...
Click to expand...
Don't know if you were injecting sarcasm or if you are serious (in which case your local range officer must love you!), but I got a good chuckle out of your tale. :)
 
As someone that owns that exact style of rifle (which I'm not wanting to trade at present), I'm curious what makes these attributes so important/noteworthy/valuable? Don't get me wrong I like mine, but I've shot others (and handled many more) and honestly can't tell a great deal of difference (though I have more experience with my own than any other example), save for CAI copies which, though I don't hold them in as high of regard, aren't necessarily bad, just different.

P.S.: I hope your search yields the rifle you're seeking.

P.S.II: Sorry for being away for so long...been very busy for the past month or so. Also, I want to extend a warm welcome to all of the new members to the club!
Click to expand...

Hi Maverick,
This one's a simple answer! :)

Personal preference, and that's about it! Initially, I was going to purchase a very early Czechpoint VZ-58 that was available. However, I wanted to replace its 'skeleton' stock (integral buttstock/grip) with a standard set of bakelite furniture. Then, I learned that on the early models, a modified triggerguard was used through the first 12 - 18 months of production which didn't feature the "cup" part that receives the grip. I confirmed this with Dan at Czechpoint. Although the "cup" isn't required for grip installation, it was something that I knew would drive me crazy.

So that ruled out the early models.

Then, I'd read that the most current models feature German-made barrels rather than the Czech surplus barrels. So, that ruled out the newest models. Not to worry, since most locations seem to be sold out of the military-style double-stack models anyway.

That left the 'middle of the pack' as far as production goes.

Along the way, I learned that when Czechpoint built these rifles for the market, they incorporated a few proprietary details of their own. As you might imagine, they applied for a patent on their design.

Early rifles do not have any patent-related markings on them. Shortly thereafter, Czechpoint had applied for but not yet received their patent, so the rifles were marked "PATENT PENDING." When they finally received the patent, it was number 7,373,868. All subsequent rifles featured this number.

You can read the patent, in detail, here:

http://www.google.com/patents/US7373868

Once again, the "PATENT PENDING" marking is something that bothered me, though I can't explain why.

I'd finally narrowed down my search to those rifles produced by Czechpoint mid-way through production. Those marked with "TGI KNOX TN" and "Waffen Werks" were the two possibilities, and I preferred the "TGI KNOX TN" markings a little more than the Waffen Werks, if for no other reason than the smaller import mark on the left side of the receiver.

Whew! Guess that answer wasn't as simple as I thought it would be! Anyway, that's an explanation of my logic. Nearly all of it is cosmetic and trivial, but I tend to get rid of firearms that don't satisfy me to begin with. So, no use buying something I won't keep.

I've managed to acquire exactly the type of rifle described above....just picked it up yesterday! Now I'm looking for a new-in-box or excellent condition VZ-58, just like the one described above, that I can keep along with my "shooter" VZ-58. The offers still stand...top-dollar paid for an example that meets this description or a trade for my new-in-box Colt AR-15 A2 (Model 6520).

....I admit, I'm a lost cause! But, it sure is nice to be part of the VZ-58 club :)
 
....I admit, I'm a lost cause! But, it sure is nice to be part of the VZ-58 club
Click to expand...
You got that right...but which one of us aren't? :eek:

At any rate, I'm glad you found what you were looking for (one of them at least), and I hope that it serves you well for many years...welcome to the club, Eric!

:)
 
Congrats on your purchase eric:cool: Pics? Though the newer vz 58 barrels are made from walther I can tell you they are pretty accurate at least the 5.56 pistol I have. But dan from czechpoint recently imported csa factory tooling to build the rifles in-house using original vz58 chromelined surplus barrels...using csa stripped receivers. Hopefully the offer some in the original military color

Csa makes some fine quality firearms
imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg
 
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Here you go! Nothing fancy, but I really like the military appearance of this one.

On a separate note, I suspect that the wear on the edge of the receiver above the barrel (two dents) is normal wear and tear on these rifles?

DSC08335_zps2c709484.jpg

DSC08338_zps4509444d.jpg
 
Nice rifle Eric, good to have you here. My rifle has the pistol grip "cup" and I found it very abrasive when using a Mako grip, though I dont remember if the stock grip had the small gap in it. I took a small amount of bedding compound and filled the gap and it worked very well. With a dab of matching touch up paint, its almost impossible to tell it. I guess what im saying is, if it came without the cup, it wouldnt have bothered me. SWAMPMAN, thanks for the advice on the sizer die, ive tried a few, and was worried about damage long term. As for the brass catcher, I made a sort of universal catch out of PVC pipe draped with sheer material (looks sort of like a big, loose, baseball pitch back) thats sets to the right, and rear of me when shooting at the range bench. It does a great job when adjusted for whatever firearm you are using, but I loose about 1/2 when doing tactical drills. Where there is a will there is a way, ill figure something out. 10 years ago, you could pick up a 5 gallon bucket of brass on any given weekend at our (only) public range, but now days very few people are shooting at all with todays ammo prices (if you can find any at all) and the ones who do are the more dedicated folks who rarely leave brass behind. Even if I lost all of it, It is still worth having that huge ejection area on the rifle. It was a big selling point to me. Cant have everything I guess. I remember reading one of the early articles on the VZ2000, the author saying the large opening would let in dirt and sand, and thinking, "That rifle is perfectly sealed until it ejects, at which point it is blowing out a bit of gas along with the brass ejecting and nothing can get in". I still think it is one of its best features. Has any one used the plated .310 bullets to reload? I was wondering if they caused any problems leading when loaded to factory velocities. They are a good deal cheaper, but one maker said something about a reduced load, where as another didnt mention anything about it at all. I know this isnt a reloader thread, but a fine rifle becomes nothing but a club if you cant feed it.
 
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Polymer vz. 58?

These rifles have gotten really expensive, and CzechPoint seems to always be out of stock. I had a crazy idea - what if someone made a vz. 58 receiver out of a Glock-like polymer (Nylon 6)? They're doing this for the AR-15: http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii-fully-populated-ar15-lower-receiver-ar-15/

I know CSA has some patents on their sporterized version of this rifle, but you could change the design slightly. I assume that the original design is not patented. If Saigas can't be imported anymore due to the sanctions on Russia, it seems like there would be a market. How hard would it be to do this?
 
@Armed_bear
Not hard, impossible, at least with the current state of development in plastics.

In the AR family of weapons the bolt locks into the barrel extension, so the receiver only has to be strong enough to hold the barrel and the various parts of the weapon in their proper positions. The receiver isn't an actual part of the locking system and doesn't have to be strong enough to contain the thousands of pounds of chamber pressure generated each time the weapon fires.

In the VZ-58, the locking block on the bolt locks directly into the receiver, meaning that the receiver itself has to be strong enough to take all the stress associated with locking and firing.

That wasn't a very good synopsis, if you're lucky, someone with better abilities to explain will come along.

If not, check out "Small Arms of the World" from your local library and you'll learn more about the subject than you ever wanted to know.
 
I think it would be impossible as well. Maybe you could have some sort of metal insert but at the end of the day the reinforcements would negate the difference. Think of it like making the receiver of your bolt, lever or shotgun action out if plastic, not a good idea. It would be more probable with an ak, whose bolt locks into the barrel, but I have not heard of any poly aks. The ar family, as mentioned is very clever in how it manages loadbearing parts but even so only the lower half can be made of polymer. Others like the new berreta rifle and I think the h&k g36 get away with metal reinforced poly recevers.

I'm not sure why they are getting so expensive, I guess original receivers and parts r drying up, but us made receivers are already thing, which is what the century arms ones are built on. Then again they too have gone out of stock. But there is a way.
 
I believe it would be possible to create a polymer receiver for the vz, however the cost associated with such a design would likely exceed available steel copies. As others have stated the bolt locks into a recess in the receiver itself, much like most lever rifles. This would necessitate a large steel reinforcement in the polymer (similar to the reinforcements placed in many polymer pistol frames for the slide guides, but larger) for the bolt to have a proper locking position. Modern polymers are very strong, however they lack the durability and the toughness to perform such a task, even aluminum and/or titanium alloys wouldn't perform the task well for lengthy periods of time. That said a steel front trunion molded into the polymer receiver (with longitudinal reinforcement throughout to prevent it from being battered and stretched in recoil) should perform the task just as good as a steel one. The only problems are the lack of cost savings and little weight savings (in an already lightweight rifle). In summary it's possible, but it achieves little in the process. For now, the vz-2008 may be the best-buy for those with a tight budget (if you can find one, they seem to be scarcer now)...they may not be the best available, but they seem to be a very good value.

:)
 
In summary it's possible, but it achieves little in the process.
Click to expand...
I disagee!

You pretty well described how a steel receiver could be almost totally encased in plastic to protect it from corrossion!

The line for the patent office forms on the right... :D
 
Better plan is to try making the receivers the way the UK59 was (or at least, how it appears to have been done); casting a hardenable alloy in the shape desired.

An 'updated' VZ58, which I think could actually be very competitive if only there were still a desire for an open-top chargeable layout in a service rifle, would be done with a machined/forged front trunnion, like an AK, and either sheet metal or molded plastic receiver extending back from there (likely but not necessarily with metallic rails). You end up with a much simpler and inexpensive way of making the part (the Hellbox Armory hybrid receiver actually uses the front receiver stump as a trunnion, and grafts sheet metal sides and rails onto it to form the remainder).

Unfortunately, such a piece-together setup could easily end up lacking in strength; the receiver would just be two flat plates side by side across the magwell, with some rails spotwelded on the interior. Not enough to keep from bending the gun out of spec in the course of abuse (a totally contiguous machined part is much stronger, though). So in all likelihood, you'd end up having to wrap the receiver over the top of the ejection port, rapidly reinventing the AR180 or VAL in a Pilsner flavor :D

TCB
 
Found this showing how a rotating bolt works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_bolt#mediaviewer/File:Rotating_Bolt.png I won't bother you anymore with my self-education process.... It seems like you could have the bolt lock onto the outside of the barrel (without a rotating bolt), if there were two posts forged as part of the barrel for the latches to hook on, instead of onto the receiver. I wasn't thinking of it as a service rifle, just as a semi-automatic that the average person could buy for around $500. Thanks for the tip on the VZ2008 Maverick. I've read mixed reviews, but Atlantic says they do a quick QC check: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/com...8-7-62x39mm-rife-package-detail.html?Itemid=0
 
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Maybe its just me, but I think that the solid steel receiver is one of the VZ58's greatest strengths (both literally and figuratively). The fact that the Czechs were able to come up with a rifle that used old school machined steel while keeping the rifle lighter and much more "handy" than its stamped Russian cousin, speaks volumes about the Czech small arms industry.

I stand by my earlier post when I said that it'd be impossible to make a plastic receivered VZ58, because even if you could come up with a way to do it, it wouldn't be a VZ58!

Besides, Century has been keeping the prices on their copies incredibly low by today's standards and I haven't heard of any problems with their receivers that couldn't be overcome by a little better QC.

Add just a few refinements like a properly spec'ed chrome lined barrel, a bit more thought into designing a semi auto FCG and a few other little tweaks like that and you'd have a weapon that would be at least comparable to the current Czech made version and quite possibly superior.

I don't know that Century could pull it off, but you can't convince me that American workers aren't capable of building weapons at least as well as the Czechs.
 
I think a good way to "modernize" the VZ 58 reciever would be to use a precision investment casting along the lines pioneered by Sturm Ruger with the P series pistols (and most everything they make now). You could cast it in ordnance steel or stainless. A more or less perfect casting does away with almost all of the expensive machining and makes the design more cost effective, while still delivering a strong reliable firearm. As long as the makers can make profit on the design, we shooters can be asured of rifles for years to come. I would love to see a 100% American made VZ 58, in several calibers and configurations, if for no other reason than it makes it harder for some gun banning president to block the import as an end run, gun control scheme. Obama has just blocked several Russian imports, and is in the process of banning ALL 5.45x39 ammo as we speak, not just the surplus. Import military barrels of any kind are already banned, all without a single vote from the peoples Representatives in Congress. Who knows if parts kits are next on the list? That would end the building of our beloved rifle with the stroke of a pen. Heres hoping an American manufacture decides to build the complete rifle in America. *****Dont forget to vote by the way, and fill your car with like minded voters. The next vote will be one of the most important in history, and may well decide if we are going to continue to be a free country, or fall into the slavery of socialism.
 
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*edit*- After an e mail to clarify, my source cant confirm or deny that the BATF is banning all 5.45x39, but will say they are in the process of trying to milk the situation between Russia and Ukraine for all they can take, ammo and firearms alike. Sorry if I jumped the gun a bit. I guess we will see soon enough what will be coming besides the Kalashnikov concerns-Molot blockade. I didnt intend to post any false information, which is why I asked for some clarification.
 
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richg, what is that "rod" above the wire stock? Home made or purchased? I was think of making something like it. What kind of clamps are those?
 
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