WA 1594 - The next steps in the fight

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ohbythebay

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As per our mod, I will go ahead and start this thread. I don't have the answers, just a lot of questions. Here are some thoughts.

What is a transfer ?
If I am at the range with a friend and I let him shoot my gun, is that REALLY a transfer? Is transfer defined as "transfer of ownership"? Transfer of possession (as in I hand him the gun and he goes to another location separate from myself such as storing in his home)

Misleading voter information
Was the ballot and ballot information misleading in that it only spoke to one line of an 18 page document ?

How will this be policed ?
Does a LEO have to see you hand someone else a firearm or could someone report "Hey, I saw two guys passing guns back and forth at the range". Legal nightmare if you ask me.

Who can we join up with to fight this or is there really a fight at all?

Okay folks...lets hear from you
 
Well, the NRA facebook page done blew the heck up this morning with people from Washington complaining they were "left to fend for themselves", "Thrown to the wolves", and so on.

https://www.facebook.com/NationalRifleAssociation/posts/10152958268141833

It's actually getting kind of ugly there. The backlash from Washington against the NRA (and some from New York) is very clear. NRA is bragging of a massive political victory and the people of WA and NY felt they were ignored, and will now suffer the consequences.

Anti-gunners spent quite a bit on their campaign to get I-594 up and passed. Deeper pockets and more TV time carried the day for them, this time.

As far as next steps?

Use this as a rallying cry before worse things happen!
 
The people that want to whine about this mess need to just knock it off and focus on working to change things now that we lost. We know how this got passed - money and a change in demographics in WA with the large urban centers wagging the dog. The thread in Activism on 594 running up to the election pointed all this out.

What we DO about it next is what's important. Wringing hands and pointing fingers isn't going to accomplish anything constructive and won't fly here so we need to come up with some constructive ideas (or expect to have defeatist posts deleted). Trent's right that the only good from the complaints over the loss is to stir people up and get them off the couch (kvetching at the NRA won't do any good and just give them someone to blame instead of looking to take care of their own house).

How do we get NRA and other groups moving if they didn't put the effort in we expected before the vote? Do we know why they may not have done what we expected? Was there a strategy we weren't privy to?

I would expect a court challenge based on the law being too vague and difficult to understand and implement consistently.
Contact Mr. Gotleib at SAF/CCRKBA and offer all the help you can with that effort.
 
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So theoretically, under the new state law, if i take someone shooting i must transfer the gun to them...what is to keep that person from simply walking away with my gun? Since it has been transferred, is it now legally theirs?

"Officer, this person is stealing my gun"
"No, i just bought this, we did the transfer"
 
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The low voter turnout is the past and not relevant to what we do going forward. Mid term elections are typically very low turn out anyway. What mattered is who showed up out of that 31% and what do we do to make sure the proper proportions of 2A supporters turn out in 2016?

Will a bill be introduced killing 594 in the upcoming 2016 election? Has anyone checked with the state 2A orgs or the 2A supporting politicians?
 
Very good point

Will a bill be introduced killing 594 in the upcoming 2016 election? Has anyone checked with the state 2A orgs or the 2A supporting politicians?
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I will be glad to volunteer time for the effort and on behalf of any politician who supports our cause

You are also correct, we can whine and complain or we can press forward. I VOTE TO PRESS FORWARD.
 
we can whine and complain or we can press forward
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Actually I think it's good to do both.

But by "complain" I mean we need to analyze what happened and learn from it, so it doesn't happen again either her in our own state or in other states (you know that this is coming to ballots nation wide next election now that the gun grabbers have had some success here)

I think the complaint about the NRA is valid. Why did they abandon WA state in this election? Aside from a few bumper stickers, I didn't see ANYTHING opposing 594. Until I feel this question has been answered, the NRA isn't getting one more penny from me... why should I support an organization that is going to throw me under the bus?

As far as moving forward, I will volunteer any assistance I can to an effort to repeal or even to amend this thing. If we can't eliminate it totally then maybe we can at least add something like an exemption if the transfer takes place between two concealed carry permit holders...

Is this something that we would do via our local representatives or would it have to be another ballot measure?
 
only a 31% voter turnout
that did not help
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The other 69% were too busy at home smoking (legal) weed....:fire:

Who would have thought 20 years ago that weed would be legalized and guns would be getting restricted. When I went to school, drugs were bad and guns were ok.

Now drugs are ok and guns are bad. What happened?
 
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So theoretically, under the new state law, if i take someone shooting i must transfer the gun to them...what is to keep that person from simply walking away with my gun? Since it has been transferred, is it now legally theirs?
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This would be the least of our worries.

I've gotta think that there are a LOT of FFLs who are now looking at a significant uptick in their business and a lot more money for just a few minutes work per transaction.

And yes, I'm gonna "kvetch" about the NRA ... We in Washington state WERE abandoned, and that's simply unconscionable.

I woke up this morning and didn't even want to look at the election results (even though I was pretty sure we dumped a state legislator whom I can't stand). I feel sick ...

However, I do know an attorney who's already getting involved in the fight to counter this bad legislation. And I'm pretty sure Gottlieb's got a plan. We're not done yet.
 
To say I'm displeased is a gross understatement- I also feel the NRA could, and should, have done MUCH more to help defeat this draconian I-594 garbage.
 
My girlfriend lives in Washington. I live in Oregon. I'm too cheap to pay for a hunting license in Washington, so when she goes bird hunting I just walk along with her, carrying water and extra shells.

Just like you're taught in hunter ed, when we need to cross a fence, she usually unloads the shotgun and hands it to me. She climbs over, I hand her back the gun, then I climb over.

I read the initiative a few months back. My understanding is that under this law, when she hands me the shotgun the first time, we are both committing a misdemeanor. When I hand her the gun back, we have now committed a felony.

I suspect the same thing will be attempted here in oregon, as well as other states. I'd like to do something to help fix this problem in Washington, and I'd also like help stop it before it impacts oregon.

I have no idea how to get involved. In the past I've always just supported the NRA. I guess that's not enough when it comes to the state initiative process.

HOW CAN AN AVERAGE PERSON HELP?
 
Anyone in Washington knows Tim Eyeman. Those who don't, well, the guy is an initiative-writing machine. Quite a few of his initiatives have passed voters, but not the court, because the initiative contained more than one purpose. I695 was one such measure that chopped vehicle tab fees and required all tax increases to be put to a vote of the people. That's against state law (two purposes in one measure) and I695 was shot down.

594 does a lot (handgun registry database, background checks for all transfers, handgun waiting period extended to 10 days, and a lot more) but whether or not a court would see it as multiple purposes, I don't know. I'm sure Gottlieb and Gura are looking at it, along with the law being written in vague language that makes it nigh on impossible to enforce.

Hurry up and wait, guys. SAF knows their stuff and they're locals, so they have a vested interest in seeing 594 tombstoned.
 
Playing Devil's Advocate...

Just an observation; you all say the NRA abandoned WA and NY. Are those two places not the epicenters of the billionaires waging war upon them? Do they not have monetary resources far beyond the NRA, which they would not hesitate to bring to bear were the NRA to brazenly march into town? I am merely saying the NRA may have had some good reasons not to throw fuel on the fire (it's not like they're beloved in those areas in the first place, either --as you can plainly see on the boards across the web). Unlike Bloomberg, they can't afford to spend 10X the opposition, so they have to fight in less conspicuous or competitive fights, than a full-on brawl with Gates/Bloomberg on their home turf. Bloomberg didn't ad-bomb the state of Texas as best I can tell, either ;)

And that's not even getting into the (probably exaggerated) bad blood between the NRA and the SAF. Either the SAF telling the NRA they had this under control, or the NRA avoiding them to prevent the potential for conflict. The last thing anyone wanted before the election was one or the other squealing "Butt out! I'm workin' this side of the street!"

TCB
 
Maybe that's the institutional "check" on the initiative process; that the writers are typically so undisciplined or greedy, that the measures tend to be legally indefensible :p (kind of a crummy system of checks and balances, but in Eyeman's case it appears to be working more often than not :neener:)

I would love to see 594 repudiated and forced onto the ballot as constituent pieces. I imagine it wouldn't be nearly so ambitious were that the case.

TCB
 
Playing Devil's Advocate...

Just an observation; you all say the NRA abandoned WA and NY. Are those two places not the epicenters of the billionaires waging war upon them? Do they not have monetary resources far beyond the NRA, which they would not hesitate to bring to bear were the NRA to brazenly march into town? I am merely saying the NRA may have had some good reasons not to throw fuel on the fire (it's not like they're beloved in those areas in the first place, either --as you can plainly see on the boards across the web). Unlike Bloomberg, they can't afford to spend 10X the opposition, so they have to fight in less conspicuous or competitive fights, than a full-on brawl with Gates/Bloomberg on their home turf. Bloomberg didn't ad-bomb the state of Texas as best I can tell, either

And that's not even getting into the (probably exaggerated) bad blood between the NRA and the SAF. Either the SAF telling the NRA they had this under control, or the NRA avoiding them to prevent the potential for conflict. The last thing anyone wanted before the election was one or the other squealing "Butt out! I'm workin' this side of the street!"

TCB
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I'm betting this is the case. NRA and SAF don't play well together and have stepped on each others toes in the past. SAF is going to blindside these 594 yahoos in court, hide and watch. No reason to spend big bucks in a questionable battle when a counter strike is sure to come with gusto. The big spenders can't buy a court decision or hire better attorneys. The field is now level. Two attorneys, one judge and a state constitution. This will be better than a playoff game.
 
The anti's outspent the NRA 17.7:1.

That's a LARGE monetary advantage. Several individuals were dropping million or several-hundred-thousand dollar donations in on the anti-gun side.

The largest private donation on the pro-gun side? $6300-ish?

What y'all need right now isn't a big bankroll from the NRA.

You need a grassroots movement like we built in Illinois.

8,000+ strong marching on and THROUGH the capitol, the year before we got Shall Issue.

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My son and I with Rep. Phelps, the sponsor of the concealed carry bill that was passed.

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We've taken our licks over the years, in Illinois, for sure. But gun owners here got fed up, and fought back.

The latest sweep?

The anti-gun advertisements by Gov. Quinn got downstate voters out in RECORD numbers.

And look what happened Tuesday?

Quinn lost *every* county except Cook. We had a RECORD turnout in most downstate townships. (My township beat their ALL TIME record for voter turnout by *10 AM* on Tuesday!)

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You gotta get the people off their butt.

You got a chance to do it right now. You got a warning shot across the bow with universal background checks, but get people moving BEFORE you get an assault weapons ban crammed up your backside!
 
Events to show the politicians that the there are large organized groups for something do good, but it is important to tailor the message for the situation.

Illinois and Washington have some important similarities in that Seattle, much like Chicago, has a disproportionate influence on goings on in the capital. Unlike Illinois, Washington isn't experiencing flight from the state leaving people with a greater interest in the 2A behind increasing the influence of our side. Instead, the exact opposite is happening in Washington where the state is being inundated with Californians who increase traffic congestion, compete for housing, and want to change Washington into their idealized version of the place they left behind. That includes anti 2A firearms laws.

Rallying traditional Washingtonians and those that fled California for greater freedom for Washington is important. Tailoring the message in the rallies to sell our position is vitally important to get the change needed. Focusing on how the law is fatally flawed, turning law abiding sportsmen and homeowners into criminals because of those flaws, and wastes scarce taxpayer dollars better spent for real social programs by make a law indefensible in court cases where real criminals might have been charged under it. That focus needs to take into account the very people needed to change the law in the face of the money still available to oppose such a change.
 
Experience has shown us here that a strong state organization is key to stopping restrictive measures at the committee/lntroduction level. A strong state organization can focus on the legislature and bring pressure to make sure bills are defeated before a vote or being put on the ballot.
 
Doc's right. You have to have partners in the legislature to win. Those legislators have to be motivated to help and it is best if they're motivated through personal belief as well as enlightened self interest of staying in office, but they need the support of citizens groups and lobbyists so they can help other legislators support our position.
 
The other 69% were too busy at home smoking (legal) weed....

Who would have thought 20 years ago that weed would be legalized and guns would be getting restricted. When I went to school, drugs were bad and guns were ok.

Now drugs are ok and guns are bad. What happened?
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You may be surprised to find out that there are quite a lot of pro-freedom folks out there who both oppose gun control and support legalization of cannabis. After all, this is supposed to be a free country. Btw alcohol,nicotine and Prozac are all drugs too. They've also caused countless documented deaths every year, unlike cannabis.
 
As a CA resident, I've experienced many bad gun laws being passed over the years, and as a future WA resident, I was really hoping 594 would not pass.

However, NRA-bashing is not only unproductive, it helps the other side. NRA's strength is working behind the scenes to keep legislators from supporting bad laws. They have no leverage on wealthy gun-grabbers who fund state propositions. That's when gun owners need to step up, vote and get other folks to vote. When we lose, it's tempting to point fingers, but instead of doing that we need to get gun owners fired up to make sure it doesn't happen again.

There are very few effective organizations that support gun owners and NRA is one of them.
 
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