Walker with a different twist --- .45 BPM (.45 Black Powder Magnum)

[scrat]

ALL i can say is one thing.

I HATE YOU.

NOW give me my cylinder back. Man i so want one now. If i still had my lathe. You know any machinist can make you a set of dies to reload so easy. Please keep me posted.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi ClemBert,


Ye'd asked -

So where does one go to get 0.452 soft lead round balls?

Just run any old .454 Balls through a Lubri-sizing/Bullet-Sizing Die of .452 Diameter.


I made some Double-Ball Black Powder Cartridges in .45 Colt, and to do so, I ran the erstwhile .457 Balls through a .454 Die in my Bullet Sizer.

Works really well...

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi ClemBert,


Ye'd also asked -

Yes, it would seem that one could load two 0.451 round ball in a cartridge. I would assume that you'd have to be very careful to pack the area where the balls touch with a filler material. Without that packing you'd have an air gap between the balls. Sounds potentially risky. No?

Discuss....

Merely elect by experiment, the amount of Black Powder which will compress beneath the lower Ball, for the 2nd, upper Ball to have it's Equator at the lip of the Cartridge Case for it to be well crimped.


Re-sizing a .457 Ball to in your case, .452, ( Maybe in stages, or, if less so, re-sizing a .454 Ball in one pass ) would give you a nice Equator for Crimp into, too.


The .45 Colt 'Double-Ball' Cartridges I made a handfull of to try out, made only one normal hole in the Paper Target at 30 feet...so, the Balls did not appear to be wandering at all in my experience, they stayed one right behind the other.

 

[Foto Joe]

The .45 Colt 'Double-Ball' Cartridges I made a handfull of to try out, made only one normal hole in the Paper Target at 30 feet...so, the Balls did not appear to be wandering at all in my experience, they stayed one right behind the other.

Arrrghhh!!!
You guys are killin' me here!! Just when I think that I've got my ducks all neatly lined up in a tight row, you gotta go and bring up the fact that I can actually load "more than one" RB into those 45 Colt cartridges I've been so diligently stuffing with BP.

I'm a little confused though on the part about re-sizing the balls down to .452. I realize that the standard for 45 Colt is .452 bu I've been shooting the .454's with no problems. It's early and cold out so I don't have a caliper in front of me, but I've mic'd the barrel and there's plenty of room for the .454

As far as the brass is concerned, I've stopped re-sizing to reduce the blow-back but even before, seating a .454 wasn't an issue.

Oyeboten, why don't you start another thread and post your pet load for the double ball loads.

 

[ClemBert]

NOW give me my cylinder back.

To quote the late Charlton Heston:

"From my cold, dead hands."

 

[andrewstorm]

wowweewow!!

Clembert,please mark this cylinder,.45 black powder magnum only,you can imagine what would happen if a fully loaded smokeless round were loaded into the chamber of this fine specimen of American ingenuity,have you any idea if 60 grains bp could be safely fired from this big beauty?would lighter loads require the use of corn meal?

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi FoTo Joe,



For any given size diameter one wishes to use, where, it is a Ball...and in a Metallic Cartridge...

If you start off with a slightly larger Ball, and, re-size it to the desired diameter, you will have a nice 1/8th inch wide or so 'Equator' to Crimp the Case into.

This also adds a few more Grains in weight, for the Ball...and, nothing wrong with that!


Using a Ball which is already the final diameter as-is, one has no real Equator to crimp into, or, it is mathematically infinitely narrow in width anyway...and or far less satisfyning to Crimp to, anyway.


Having several sizing Dies, and, a Lubrisizer or whatever, is handy for this, of course.


For Double-Ball, in any given Cartridge Case, with Black Powder, simply find out impirically how much Powder to have, for the first Ball to crush into for a good compression, where, the position of the second Ball will then end up right for the desired Crimp to occur for the Ball's Equator, to be centered on or at the Cartridge Mouth Lip's edge.


Smokeless Double-Ball Loads freighten me to think about, since, one is not compressing the Powder, and, usuaully, one would have an Air Space in the Cartridge, and, there is no good way to locate the first Ball to ensure it can not or will not drift further in or fall 'down', where, a potentially very dangerous or even catastrophic Loading Density could result.

Also, one would have to make some pretty careful ;calculations for determining what Loading Density one has, or, wishes to have, if using a non-bulky Smokeless like Bullseye or Unique even.

One could probably use a Cannelure making engine or Device to make a deep Cannelure which would locate the first Ball correctly, for managing the Loading Density one has determined to be optimum with the Smokless Powder one intends to use.


As for me, I have not made any Smokeless Double Ball Cartridges, and, if I ever do, I will certainly have a method ( deep Cannalure to locate the first Ball ) and be very careful and methodical with it and the calculations permitting it to be done safely, and, this would only be for some Modern Revolver or other, like a M1917 .45 or something I s'pose.


'777', being nice and bulky, the first Ball merely sits on the powder with no compression, of course.


The Black Powder Double Ball Cartridges I did make up for experiment, did very nicely.

At 30 feet, the two Balls made one perfect Hole every time, no different than one Ball would make...but, of course, their FPS was lower than it would have been with one Ball or with a same weight as 'two' Balls, of Bullet/Boolit, since the two Balls use up so much room, and, the resulting Powder Charge then is quite a bit less.


Now, in a conversion which can use the .460 Cartridge Case, I exoect there is enough room for a pretty peppy Black Powder Double Ball Load, since the Case is a lot longer.


I am sure I did a few Double Ball Loadings in my Cap & Ball Revolvers...I know I have, but, I forget what sort of FPS I was getting with that, other than, slower than usual single Ball, of course.

 

[bubba15301]

Clembert do you have any range results and chronograph data?

 

[ClemBert]

Bubba,

It's very preliminary at this point. I have film footage I'm still analyzing. I had posted the following in TFL yesterday. I didn't post it in this forum yet.

=========================================================

You are looking at an Uberti Walker sitting in a test fixture that is used to evaluate test firing certain cartridges. This Walker was converted to fire the .45 BPM cartridge. The question is: Why is the flame non-symmetric? Notice how the flame jets out downward. Discuss...

Sorry for the poor quality of the picture. It was taken from a camcorder on a bright sunny day with the sun at its highest point.



The .45 BPM cartridge being fired contains 55 grains of Goex FFFg, a fiber wad, and a 150 grain Biglube bullet (second from the right). That's a .45 Colt on the left side.

 

[junkman_01]

The crown is not symmetrical is my guess.

 

[arcticap]

I think that what's seen in the photo is totally normal. It resembles the downward draft behind a large aircraft that's airborne. Behind it there's a vortice of downward turbulence, a downward wake of circulating air that lasts for a period of time.
It's simply an air circulation pattern that originates from the bullet surface creating an obstacle to the air flowing around it as it travels at high speed when exiting the barrel tube.
I believe that some of the relevant concepts involved are vortex (or vortice), airfoils and airflow, Bernoulli's Principle, and the venturi effect.
What I've read points to this downward airflow as being normal.

 

[mykeal]

An aircraft wake is actually two counter-rotating horizontal vortices; the direction of flow at any given point will vary in every direction at various times depending on location with respect to the aircraft. It's actually very well defined mathematically. Those vortices are the reason a heavier-than-air vehicle can fly. The downward characteristic immediately behind the aircraft, and of the air mass itself, is due to the vortices both rotating inward towards the aircraft.

That's not the case here. A bullet or round ball lacks the airfoils that create the vortices in an aircraft wake. While their trajectory is influenced by ambient air currents, their flight path is ballistic - they're not 'flying' in the sense of a powered aircraft or even a sailplane.

The wake behind a bullet is a series of shed vortices which are harder to describe mathematically; Strouhal theory is usually used. I don't believe what you're seeing is wake effect. A burning gas is plasma; you can cause the gas field to flow in a certain direction with application of enough air flow, but movement within the field is essentially random, mathematically characterized by chaos theory.

If we had a series of photographs from different shots all showing the same characteristic I'd say there was a barrel or projectile anomaly, but one photograph isn't sufficient to make that case. I'm voting for random motion within the gas field.

 

[arcticap]

I would tend to disagree with you mykeal because the bullet is known to exit the barrel at a slight upward angle due to the sighting plane. I think that creates an airfoil effect which causes the airflow (circulation pattern) to pass over the top of the bullet faster than the air passing under the bullet.
This is where Bernoulli's Principle takes effect which states that the downdraft will be created behind the bullet.
With airplanes, the downdraft residual wake is so severe that small planes are warned to stay out of the wake for a minute or two to allow it to dissipate.
Here the downward wake isn't as severe but I believe that it can exist as illustrated by the muzzle blast photo.
There's even a Chuck Hawk's article that acknowledges the rising bullet angle as it leaves the barrel. Even if the rising bullet angle is simply due to sight alignment and not the bullet actually rising above the bore axis, I believe that the effect of an airfoil is created and that's why Bernoulli's Principle explains why the downdraft exists.
The bullet is not an airfoil, but it sets up a circulation pattern that acts just like a small piece or segment of an airfoil. Especially after the bullet exits the barrel at an upward angle.
It fun to speculate even without having a Ph.D.!

On most occasions the barrel is slanted upward slightly to compensate for this immediate drop; thus, for all but extreme shots, since the barrel is aimed slightly upward, the bullet does, indeed, rise slightly after it leaves the barrel, but it bullet never rises above the axis of the barrel. (Just like a football generally rises above the player when they throw a pass. The longer the pass, the greater the starting angle, and the higher the "rise" before the ball begins to fall.)....
....Typical Alignment. Generally, for what we consider a "horizontal" shot, the sight alignment places the barrel in a slightly upward tilt, and the bullet starts its arc, rises slightly above the level of the muzzle, but never above the axis of the barrel, reaches a peak, then descends.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

 

[Curator]

Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

 

[ClemBert]

Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

If you measure your cap-n-ball cylinder chambers you'll probably find a measurement similar to mine...0.450. This means the shaved round ball is going to be 0.450 or even smaller than a 0.452 bullet. Does this mean that round balls will lead the bore too?

The BHN for my bullets is about an 8.

 

[Voodoochile]

Two Uberti Walker bores I measured came to .440 (land) .456 (groove). One was purchased last year and the other about 8 years ago. So this may be pretty standard. My 2nd Model Dragoon (also Uberti) has similar bore measurements. .452 bullets will lead the bore and give up accuracy unless very soft, and backed by black powder or some kind of ballistic filler.

The main reason why I reamed the chambers on my Pietta NMA because the grove diameter was .4495 & the chambers were .4460, now they are .4510 which I beleive helped in accuracy with the conicals.

Clembert;
I'd look at some other photos or video of your revolver to see if it is consistently flaming like that because it could be either some recoil effect that you ant redily see or it could be a crown issue.

 

[Hoof Hearted]

ClemBert

Are you ever going to hold that thing in your hand and fire it?

I have been regularly shooting 60gr of 3f swiss in mine behind a 250 gr .454 bullet with spg

 

[ClemBert]

Are you ever going to hold that thing in your hand and fire it?

I have been regularly shooting 60gr of 3f swiss in mine behind a 250 gr .454 bullet with spg

Oh, that's been done. The video footage is actually more useful in working out the reloading bugs....just not as fun as firing off hand.

 

[Curator]

Pure lead round balls rarely lead when using real black powder even if undersize (and unlubed). Not only will they obturate as they hit the forcing cone but real black doesn't seem to have the pressure/temperatures needed to erode/melt lead from the sides of the ball as it escapes down the grooves. Smokeless does. Black powder is also known to pack the forward protion of the charge compressed and unburned behind the ball acting like a filler and preventing blow-by. With most C&B revolvers about half of the charge is converted to gas before the ball exits the muzzle. This accounts for the muzzle flash/flame and report. Heavier charges usually result in more velocity because they add to bullet weight, pressure, and burning efficiency, not because they are burned in the barrel.

 

[ClemBert]

The .45 BPM only shoots with BP. There was a specific reason why I dubbed it BPM (Black Powder Magnum). The max load is 60 grains FFFg. I load with a 0.030 fiber wad between the BP and the projectile. I'm not expecting leading but I'm gonna have fun experimenting to see the results.

 

[mykeal]

arcticap -

I'd be happy to discuss this further, but perhaps we should do so in a new thread; I am uncomfortable with the degree to which I've already hijacked the gentleman's thread. I will start one if you like.

 

[alienbogey]

I don't have a Walker yet but when I do I'll want a 45BPM cylinder for it.

 

[Racebannon]

ClemBert,

That is the coolest concept gun I've seen in a while. I really enjoyed your writings and this thread. Maybe someday I'll take the plunge and have one built.

 

[rifle]

The balls in a cap&ball chamber aren't more accurate because of less "bullet jump".That's actally funny.
The chambers of the cap&ballers are so often tapered and a ball seated further in the chamber is swagged smaller. The closer it is to the opening of the chamber mouth the less it is swagged smaller. It's not "bullet jump" that affects the accuracy. It's the swaqgging smaller of the ball the deeper it is in the tapered chamber that affects the accuracy for the worse.
Most Italian cap&ballers have somewhat tapered chambers maybe to insure a good gas seal against chain fires.
A good way to get rid of "bullet jump" problems is to ream a chamber in a cap&baller to be a uniform diameter. The problem isn't longer bullet jump but is smaller swagged balls in tapered chambers.
Anyway, with a cap&baller conversion to cartridge the use of heeled or hollow based bullets can solve chamber and groove diameter problems/differences if you don't want to depend on obsturation of the lead.
One thing to note is that a Walker doesn't take a full 60gr. poder when using a conical bullet. I think with a 250gr. bullet it would be closer to 50gr. max powder.
Someone mentioned reaming an original cylinder to a 45 chamber and I have to say the notches in the cylinder would be paper thin and/or break thru.
Anyway it is a cool idea to use 460S&W brass in a Walker conversion.

 

[BCRider]

Mykeal and articap, on the topic of airflow, Bernoulli, et all. As someone that has designed and flown model airplanes for more decades than I care to remember and studied what makes a plane fly almost as long I'd have to suggest that much of what occurs around an airplane's wing has very little to do with bullets exiting a gun barrel and precious little while in flight.

An airplane wing's function is to bend the air and accelerate it downwards. When doing this it creates a pressure difference between the lower and upper sides that results in "waste" vortices that come off the wingtips due to some undesireable but unavoidable span wise airflow.

Meanwhile a bullet or ball in flight is a symetrical shape passing through the air with a zero angle of attack. As such it has more in common with a golf ball than a wing surface. With a symetrical shape and no angle of attack the airflow around the bullet or ball will not produce any lift and therefore the flow all around it will be symetrical other than some fluctuating turbulence that wraps around behind and tends to whip about and come in from quickly changing points of the clock around the bullets edge. Without lift there is no downwash, sidewash or anything else. If there was our bullets would respond to any lift by moving to the side, up or down in all manner of confusion and we'd be lucky to hit the side of a barn. Instead we're left with just some fluctuating turbulence in the wake of the ball or bullet. Think of how a flag whips in the wind due to the airflow off the flag pole as an example of this effect.

And while actually in the barrel and upon first exiting the barrel none of the above applies. It's just a plug caught between two pressure zones in a bore. A very high pressure zone behind and a low one ahead which is pushed out of the way. Although technically Bernoulli's laws apply to that situation the effect will be unnoticable since there is no direction changes or obstructions in the "pipe".

All of which means it's still an oddity to me why Clembert's test shots all show the blast aiming down so strongly. My guess is that since the cylinder gap opens up to vent off some pressure long before the bullet leaves the muzzle crown perhaps there's a shock wave effect from the pressure peak at the gap that travels forward and affects the muzzle blast. But that's only a guess on my part. My other best guess is to agree with an earlier post about the muzzle crown being less than idea.

However it's given with the pretty darned sound knowledge that the muzzle blast being directed so much down as shown has zero to do with any lifting or other aerodynamics effects of the bullet.