Walker with a different twist --- .45 BPM (.45 Black Powder Magnum)

[Oyeboten]

I am sure that Double-Ball Loads would do well also.

They do well in .45 Colt BP of course.


Triple Ball Loads might also do just fine for that matter, which while Heavy, would have a lot less Powder behind them of course.

Be fun to try...see what they do.


The Double Ball Loads I was experimenting with in .45 Colt, made one neat Hole at 30 feet, no different than the hole one Ball would do...so, apparently the second Ball was following perfectly, the 1st one with no wandering by that distance anyway.

I will have to try it sometime on farther Targets to see what goes on with 60 feet or 100 feet and so on.


The .460 Cartridge Case being longish, would allow Shot Shell or other options to be better realized than is possible with .45 Colt ( with Black Powder).

 

[Jaymo]

I loaded Speer .440 round balls into double ball loads for the .44 special back in the early 90s. Since they were larger diameter than a .44 bullet, they were sized down by the action of seating them with the die. They shot well, and made 2 holes about an inch or 2 apart at about 20 yards. I used a mild charge of 4756 (IIRC). They were fun.
You could always use a wonder wad under the first all, if you're concerned with the ball not staying in place. I believe the friction fit of of the .440 balls kept that from happening.
I'm thinking the .460 case would be good for double/triple ball and shot loads for my Taurus Judge.

I like the idea of modding a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder. I like the look and lever latch of the Dragoons, but prefer the powder capacity of the Walker.

 

[ClemBert]

I'm thinking the .460 case would be good for double/triple ball and shot loads for my Taurus Judge.

I like the idea of modding a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder. I like the look and lever latch of the Dragoons, but prefer the powder capacity of the Walker.

Yeah, I also gave that some thought for my Taurus Judge. Still in the thinking stages though. Probably will NOT do it.



With the personal defense 410 shotshells that Federal sell you get four 000 balls in the 2 1/2" shotshell and five 000 balls in the 3" shotshell. And NO...a Walker cylinder is too short to hold a 2 1/2" shotshell just in case any of you dingbats are trying to think ahead.



As far as the loading lever latch on the Walker versus the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd model I wonder if it'd be easier and cheaper just to have a Dragoon style latch put on the Walker while its at the gunsmith having it's recoil shield cut or the conversion cylinder modified. A Dragoon with a Walker cylinder is really a Walker with a shorter barrel and a different latch. Let me be the first to dub it the Dralker or the Walgoon.

 

[buttrap]

Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

 

[ClemBert]

This has been done many times.........

Not trying to disparage Clembert in any way

Jay Strite (Raven's Roost) and I collaborated on this starting back in 2009 and Walt and I kicked the idea around for quite some time before that with the idea of a 5 shot using, first 45-70 then 444 Marlin cases. The advent of the 460 S&W just made it a breeze!

No problemo...I don't feel disparaged at all. I'll be the first to tell folks that I'm NOT the originator of the idea. It is probably safe to say that the idea was probably first kicked around in 2005 when the 460 S&W Magnum cartridge was released.

I remember having a discussion with my brother several years ago about this back when he first introduced me to the world of BP revolvers. I didn't even know what a Walker was back then and the conversation details remain fuzzy. It was probably one of those...."Wouldn't it be kewl to shoot a Walker using s 460 S&W casing filled with BP". I had a discussion with him last year about this and he said "That's what I was trying to tell you a long time ago but you thought I was crazy". I guess it never registered with me until my conversations here on THR. What can I say...I used to be a smokeless only heathen. :banghead:

As far as "talk"...an example, from October of 2007, shows a discussion where the question is asked: 460 S&W case in a walker, has anybody thought of this?

Even within our own forum in The Official THR Walker Club thread you can read Pulp's comments from May of 2008:

I sure do like my R&D conversion cylinder.

Kinda a fantasy of mine, but I'd like to ream the cylinder out a bit longer so it would take .460S&W hulls. I'd guess they'll hold around 60 grains of FFg. Don't worry, even if I ever did it I'd never shoot smokeless loads through it. I may be dumb, but I'm not an idiot.

It is clear that there has been "talk" about this for quite some time.

I was looking at my notes and see that it was March 2010 (wow, it's been a year already?!) when I had a discussion with Jay Strite of Raven's Roost, now merged with Kirst Konverter concerning this project. Jay told me he wasn't aware of anyone having modified a cylinder to accept 460 S&W. In fact, he said he didn't know if it was do-able and said he'd put in an immediate call to Walt Kirst to find out if the cylinder would be able to handle a 460 S&W cartridge loaded with 60 grains of BP. When he followed up with me he said that Walt felt like the cylinder should be able to handle it without a problem. However, he said that neither him nor Walt would be involved with the work to ream out a conversion cylinder for a project such as I was attempting. Of course there are liability issues and any reasonable person could not blame them for taking that stand. I did send off my Walker to Jay to channel out the recoil shield and purchased the Kirst converter from him.

Jay had mentioned to me a Walker carbine rifle project he was working on for a customer that would use a shortened 45-70 casing as its container. I asked him why he didn't think about using a 460 S&W casing but I never really got the answer. It really didn't matter, I just thought it odd. Maybe they were looking for a larger diameter projectile to use. It's anyone's guess as to what that diameter would be as the shorter you make the 45-70 casing the larger the projectile diameter would be as the the 45-70 casing is kind of cone shaped (trapezoid). He just still might be working on that project.

As Jay Strite and Kirst didn't want to do the cylinder reaming for me I looked elsewhere. My first inclination was to call David Clements. He is very well known for his excellent work as well as unique and creative solutions in the BP world. David was unaware of anyone attempting to ream out a Walker cylinder for a 460 S&W casing. I sent off my Kirst cylinder along with detailed specs on the work to be performed to David. In fact I purchased the reamer bit for David to do the work because oddly, with all the custom work he does, he didn't have the proper reamer for this particular job. David did an excellent job. I had him re-blue the cylinder and that came out factory perfect.

Anyhoo, just want to get the word out that this is not an original idea of mine. There has been "talk" about this for years and years.

 

[ClemBert]

Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

Smokeless? Did he say smokeless...here in the temple of the Holy Black? Someone get a rope!

The Walker as a cap-n-ball revolver holds up to 60 grains of BP as does the .45 BPM cartridge. One question is...If most of the BP is thrown out before combustion then what would be the reduced BP charge be for this to not occur? Maybe you could clarify why it would seem that most of the BP charge would be thrown out the barrel.

I can't answer the specifics of your question. I really have some serious chrony work to do before I'd even have a clue. Sorry.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Clembert,


Where did you get the Reamer? If you don't mind me askin'...

 

[ClemBert]

Where did you get the Reamer? If you don't mind me askin'...

Give David Clements a call for the specifics. Its a well stocked quick order supply shop in NC that David likes to use. I instructed him to tack it on his normal order then sent him a check for $28. Now you know the cost if you want to buy one........or, David Clements has one now and it won't cost you a cent if he does the work for you.

 

[Foto Joe]

Out of the big case and the cool factor is there any advantage of this over a .45 colt converter with smokless? I may be stupid but seems to me most the BP powder charge is going to to out the barrel as payload.

The cool factor is a pretty big motivator, especially since ClemBert may not have much of anything better to do with his time and money, I should be so lucky.

On the other hand, in my opinion it's almost impossible to compare 45 Colt smokeless to the Black Powder version. Pushing a 235gr-255gr bullet out of the barrel with up to 40gr of powder provides a muzzle velocity that is pretty hard to beat with a smokeless round in that caliber. And you can do it with a fraction of the pressure generated by the smokeless round. The 150's that Clembert is using have got to me motorin' when they leave the barrel, I look forward to seeing if the new chronograph can withstand the muzzle blast of the BPM.

 

[ClemBert]

The 150's that Clembert is using have got to me motorin' when they leave the barrel, I look forward to seeing if the new chronograph can withstand the muzzle blast of the BPM.

Even though the work had been completed on the Walker and Kirst cylinder some time ago the only thing I was putting through it was 45 Colt with 40 grains FFFg. The primary reason for delay was I was going back-n-forth on the alloy content of the 150 BigLube. When I finally went to our man, Dash, I had him make up a couple of batches of 150's with different hardness (BHN). As you know, that 150 BigLube can be considered to have rather thin and fragile bands holding that lube in. The concern is that with 60 grain loads the bands could blow out or deform such that you don't get nice even obturation. So, on the one hand you count on the bullet to obturate the hot gas but then on the other hand you don't want to blow out the bands. Ergo, consideration is given to bullet hardness to be hard enough to withstand the pressure but soft enough to obturate. I spent way too much time thinking about this. Someone should have told be to shutup and just go shoot the daggum thing. :banghead: Anyhow, the hard 150's that Dash made up for me "seem" to work great. I haven't even tried the soft ones yet.

I personally believe that repeated firing with 250 grain bullets on top of 60 grains will eventually cause wear/damage on the Walker or cylinder ring. I have no evidence of this and do not plan to test my belief. It is based purely on others accounts of damage to their Walkers with 60 grains of powder with round ball.

 

[Foto Joe]

The thought that 60gr of powder might be a little hard on those 150's had occurred to me also. I stil think that you need a 6,000 frame per second high speed camera to go along with the chronograph so you can actually "see" what the bullet looks like after it leaves the barrel.

Since I doubt that you're going to use this thing to hunt Alaska Brown Bears, using 250gr bullets probably wouldn't gain you any benefits other than wearing the gun and/or your hand.

 

[rifle]

We have to consider the dynamics of the converted Walker being mechanically changed. The percussion can fire 60gr. charges because the closed rear of the cylinder takes the pressure curve force and not the frame. Yes,I considered the equal opposite reaction thing. I don't imagine the cylinder hitting the frame from a short distance away in ft/lbs equals the (equal opposite reactions) CUP's of pressure inside the cylinder. The pressure builds in the barrel so the ball/bullet is out of the cylinder when the peak CUP's happen with the cylinder gap releasing some pressure.
Anywhooo.....when the gun is converted to cartridge the force of the CUP's pushes on the bullet in one direction and on the backplate/frame in the other direction(as in not on the rear of the closed percussion cylinder). Whatever the CUP's would be for a 60gr. charge it would have to 10,000 or more with FFg and even more with FFFg powder. That force would be emitted into the recoil shield of the gun that isn't made of ordanance grade steel. The guns frame isn't designed for that much force I'd guess anyway.
I believe I'd stay with the manufacturers recommendation to fire Cowboy or blackpowder equivelent in the cartridges of the Kirst Konverter unless it's been proven thru scientific problem solving the frame can handle the CUP's the max 60gr. charge would generate. That would be a stress test of the tensil strength and the sheer strength and even the compression strength of the frame behind the cartridge.
It's just a matter of realizing the max loads a percussion can fire in the Walker may be higher than what the max load in a converted percussion can handle because after the conversion the mechanics are very different. It's a different beast after the conversion. It may actually be a stronger beast after the conversion...I don't know. It would have to tested by an engineering firm that has the capabilities to find the pressure needed to fracture or break the frame to see for sure.Sorta like is done to test concrete for compression and sheer and tensil strength.
The "bullet jump" of a bullet in a cylinder throat is of no consequence when the bullet jump isn't in a tapered chamber like most of the percussion cylinders are. The bullet jump actually is synomous with "swagged smaller the deeper the ball is set in the cylinder. I think back in time the bullet jump thing in a percussion revolver got misconstrude and the tapered chambers not reqalized by a lot of people. I'm just saying that a 45 Colt cartridge in a chamber with a long throat(bullet jump) is of no real consequence in a uniform diameter chamber where the bullet is a close fit into it and the groove diameter of the barrel close to that of the chamber throat of the chamber. Therefore the long bullet jump of a bullet from a 45Colt cartridge in the Walker Konversion has no negative affect on the accuracy. In a percussion cylinder with tapered chambers a long bullet jump does affect the accuracy negatively since the ball is smaller the deeper it's seated in the chamber. Therefore why not keep the conversion a 45 Colt? Conversions weren't made back in the day for any other reason than convenience. A Walker converted back in the day would probably have been a 44Colt.

 

[Hoof Hearted]

No problemo...I don't feel disparaged at all. I'll be the first to tell folks that I'm NOT the originator of the idea. It is probably safe to say that the idea was probably first kicked around in 2005 when the 460 S&W Magnum cartridge was released.

I remember having a discussion with my brother several years ago about this back when he first introduced me to the world of BP revolvers. I didn't even know what a Walker was back then and the conversation details remain fuzzy. It was probably one of those...."Wouldn't it be kewl to shoot a Walker using s 460 S&W casing filled with BP". I had a discussion with him last year about this and he said "That's what I was trying to tell you a long time ago but you thought I was crazy". I guess it never registered with me until my conversations here on THR. What can I say...I used to be a smokeless only heathen. :banghead:

As far as "talk"...an example, from October of 2007, shows a discussion where the question is asked: 460 S&W case in a walker, has anybody thought of this?

Even within our own forum in The Official THR Walker Club thread you can read Pulp's comments from May of 2008:



It is clear that there has been "talk" about this for quite some time.

I was looking at my notes and see that it was March 2010 (wow, it's been a year already?!) when I had a discussion with Jay Strite of Raven's Roost, now merged with Kirst Konverter concerning this project. Jay told me he wasn't aware of anyone having modified a cylinder to accept 460 S&W. In fact, he said he didn't know if it was do-able and said he'd put in an immediate call to Walt Kirst to find out if the cylinder would be able to handle a 460 S&W cartridge loaded with 60 grains of BP. When he followed up with me he said that Walt felt like the cylinder should be able to handle it without a problem. However, he said that neither him nor Walt would be involved with the work to ream out a conversion cylinder for a project such as I was attempting. Of course there are liability issues and any reasonable person could not blame them for taking that stand. I did send off my Walker to Jay to channel out the recoil shield and purchased the Kirst converter from him.

Jay had mentioned to me a Walker carbine rifle project he was working on for a customer that would use a shortened 45-70 casing as its container. I asked him why he didn't think about using a 460 S&W casing but I never really got the answer. It really didn't matter, I just thought it odd. Maybe they were looking for a larger diameter projectile to use. It's anyone's guess as to what that diameter would be as the shorter you make the 45-70 casing the larger the projectile diameter would be as the the 45-70 casing is kind of cone shaped (trapezoid). He just still might be working on that project.

As Jay Strite and Kirst didn't want to do the cylinder reaming for me I looked elsewhere. My first inclination was to call David Clements. He is very well known for his excellent work as well as unique and creative solutions in the BP world. David was unaware of anyone attempting to ream out a Walker cylinder for a 460 S&W casing. I sent off my Kirst cylinder along with detailed specs on the work to be performed to David. In fact I purchased the reamer bit for David to do the work because oddly, with all the custom work he does, he didn't have the proper reamer for this particular job. David did an excellent job. I had him re-blue the cylinder and that came out factory perfect.

Anyhoo, just want to get the word out that this is not an original idea of mine. There has been "talk" about this for years and years.

Just to help clarify:

The 45-70 conversion was looked at as a "parent case" only with the thought of shortening and forming to work with an inside lubed bullet of .454 diameter (think of a 44WCF looking bottleneck case) this was a thought from the Walker heir and Walt Kirst and Jay Strite both entertained it without understanding the dimensions involved as none of them were reloaders. The 444 Marlin case thoughts were solely mine as I was wanting to do a 44 Heel Base Long. This was a doable venture with very little work other than reamer grinding and will be the basis for my Remington Revolving Carbine since my thoughts here are to do something that could have been done in the era and I have a couple of long cylinders that are piloted at .375 which Walt produced for Bob Millington.. The advent or production of the 45 Colt Walker and Dragoon cylinders just made it simple to use the 460 S&W case.

There has been a lot of "pontificating" here about pressure and wear with the obvious concerns about safety or failure. The weak point in the parent revolver is the arbor/frame threads. Of course the Walker/Dragoon is very large in this area and I have not seen any issues in the 6 or so revolvers that I am aware of that have modified Kirst cylinders. The combined cylinder gap/headspace unique to the open top design does some different things when fired with heavy loads and the weight of a loaded cylinder also has effect but the only issue, so far, is peening of the "firing pin area" causing binding or sticking of the spring loaded firing pin. I speculate that the extra headspace involved is causing a brief "jump" of the primer which is then pressed back into the case when the cylinder containing the case slams back.

Both the cylinder and conversion ring, as supplied by Kirst, are tough enough for the task.

 

[BCRider]

I'm seeing a fair amount of concern over the gun giving up the ghost due to being overloaded. Frankly I don't see it being an issue. But there's always the empiracal method for analyzing the issue.

Obviously the gun didn't blow up right away. So in the short term it's able to handle the loads.

The remaining concern is then the issue of metal fatigue over the long term. There's something that can be done about that.

If the cylinder and frame are checked for measurements on a regular basis and watched for any signs of permanent growth of the cylinder diameter and frame opening this could be used as a sign that the metal is no longer working within it's purely elastic limits and that some damage is occuring which in time would lead to a failure of some form. I would suggest that the cylinder diameter be checked at points directly in line with the chambers where the walls are the thinnest as that is where any stretching would initially occur. On the frame the spacing front to rear along the top strap would also be worth watching closely. If some number of thousandth's of stretch occurs at some point then it's a sign that there is metal stretching occuring and that prudence would suggest that the loads be reduced or the gun retired at that point.

Checking of this sort would avoid the need for any sort of grand engineering being done and be something that would be easy for Clembert to do on an ongoing basis that would show quickly if there's an issue or not before it becomes a serious liability.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Best thread in BP in a long time. Absolutely fascinating.

 

[rifle]

Well,all things considered I like the idea of a nice long case in the Walker conversion. That would allow the Walker converted to be what it's always been and that's a black powder magnum.
I'd be interested in using the long case for birdshot and smokeless at Cowboy levels and do a little hunting with it. As long as I could safely get the birdshot to penetrate a tin can at least 15 yards.
I'd takke one of my "bad rifling" Walker barrels out of the parts bin and ream the lands out and get a screw in full choke in the muzzle.
Anywhoooo.....I hope the tests show the Walker can handle the "almost 45/70" type load of 60gr. blackpowder. That would push a 250gr. bullet about 1,400fps I'd guess. That puts the blackpowder 45bpm in a class with 44mag. That's enlightening. Probably with about 10,000CUP's. That's agin to a 45/70 that pushes a 500gr. bullet a little over 1,000fps with 12,000CUP's using 60gr. FFg Goex powder.
I think it's only natural for Percussion Revolver Shooters to recognize the .460 case as the exact case people have wanted to make for a Walker conversion for a long time.
I have a converted Walker using the original cylinder and chambered in 44 Special. The barrel being sleeved with a 44 revolver liner for the correct demensions there. I figure it'll hold up since Walkers converted with the original cylinders with paper thin cylinder notches in 45 have been fired and held(miraculously). In 44 the thickness of the bottom of the cylinder notches should hold up with blackpowder. All I have to do is re-make the conversion plate a gunsmith made that fits horribly. The barrel re-sleeve and the cylinder are alright. The cylinder naturally has over large 44 cylinder throats though. It actually would be better to have the barrel re-sleeved to 45 size and use the 44 special case and a heeled bullet like in the old days. Some Walkers depending on their lannd and groove diameter could possibly use a 44 special case with a heeled bullet and the original barrel without being sleeved to revolver 45 size.
Knowing the original cylinder could be used for 44 Colt(especially) or 44 special makes for an interesting scenario. I don't see anything wrong with a Walker being converted to 44 Colt blackpowder since the 44Colt was the cartridge that would have been available back in the day. That's puny for the Walker but would allow for it's use in Cowboy competition I'd guess.
The Walker in 44Special would be fun too.
Anywhoooo....if I got up off my old butt and fixed a Konverter into a Walker I'd be wanting to try some Fg and FFg powder in it.
If I got off this puter and off my old butt and fixed that converted Walker (messed up by a supposed pro-gunsmith) I have I'd be shooting some 44Special blackpowder only out of it. Maybe-just maybe test some smokeless Cowboy ammo in it(bad idea though). Like tie it to an old tire and get behind a tree and pull the trigger with a string. It would be interesting to see if an original cylinder off a Walker would handle low pressured smokeless cartridges.
I know there are more than a few that fire smokeless from "converted with the original cylinder 1851Navy Colts in 38 Colt and 38special".
I saw on the net at "Hobby Gunsmith" an article about a Dragoon converted with the original cylinder to fire 45 Colts with blackpowder and round balls and it didn't blow the cylinder notches. How it didn't I have no clue since the notch bottoms had to be almost thin enough to see thru.