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Wanna hit at distance but don't want the RECOIL

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by kannonfyre, Mar 25, 2003.

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  1. kannonfyre

    kannonfyre Member

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    Wanna snipe but don't want the RECOIL

    Two quick quick questions:

    1)The ONLY rifle calibre I have shot is 55gr 5.56mm NATO FMJ. I wish to do long range shooting out to 600 yards with a scope but do not want to spend much time getting used to STIFF recoil. Can anyone recommend me a rifle and ammo combo that can place accurate fire to 600 yards and bring down a large animal with ONE shot?

    2)How much recoil does the .44 magnum generate out of a lever action carbine with 16" barrel? How does it compare to firing 5.56mm out of an M-16A1 with 20" barrel? If I have never shot such a lever gun before, how much time/ammo would I need to adapt myself to it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2003
  2. Forseti

    Forseti Member

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    Don't think you have much choice, other than the 7.62 NATO with the limitations you have set...

    And if recoil is the big thing, then you are probably forced to take a very hard look at an AR-10...

    http://www.armalite.com/

    [​IMG]
     
  3. TechBrute

    TechBrute Member

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    I agree, you'll need a .308, but why a semi? A bolt would do much better for that.
     
  4. yankytrash

    yankytrash Member

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    An FAL has adjustable gas. You can turn'r down to the recoil of a mouse if you don't mind the FTE you'd get out of it. Or flip the FAL (or an M1A's) plug over to grenade launching, and you'll have virtually no recoil.

    Although, if you want no recoil, but effectiveness past 500yd, you don't "wanna snipe". It's one or the other, not both.

    We have enough hurdles to jump as gun owners, let's not give an anti some food. There are more subtle 'coded' ways of asking that, without literally saying it, and we all know what you mean.;)
     
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  5. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Not exactly sure what to make of the "bad statement" (edit by Steve) but here's the info re: recoil:

    Barrel lenght isn't going to have much to do with recoil other than adding weight.

    According to Chuck Hawks:

    A 55 Gr 5.56 @ 3200 fps in a 7 lb rifle has about 4 ft/lbs of recoil

    A 240 Gr 44 Magnum @ 1760 fps in a 7.5 lb rifle has about 11.2 ft/lbs of recoil

    Other notables:

    A 165 Gr 308 @ 2700 fps in a 7.5 rifle has about 17.9 ft/lbs recoil

    You put that same load through a rifle that weighs 11.5 lbs with scope and the recoil is down to 10.5 ft/lbs. And this is a bolt action. If you're wanting something like a M1A, I haven't heard many folks complain about the recoil of a scoped M1A.

    If you're looking at 600 yard competition, the 260 or even 6.5x55 might be the of the better choices, esp for recoil sensitive types. If handloading, the excellent 139 Gr Lapua Scenar @ 2,580 fps loaded with 40 Gr of N550 should get you excellent results out to 800 yards and recoil in the neighborhood of 7.2 ft/lbs in the same 11.5 lb rifle with scope or 9.8 ft/lbs in a 8.5 lb rifle with scope. This is achievable with a 6.5x55 and should be quite easy with the 260.

    CZ, Tikka and Howa all offer bolt rifles configured as such. If you're determined on a semi auto for firepower sake, you'll probably be limited to the 7.62x51 unless you are willing to take an untactical route with something like a BAR in 243.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2003
  6. boing

    boing Member

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    But...that completely removes the gas system, and it's recoil absorbing qualities, from the gas path, essentially turning the recoil impulse into that of a bolt gun...?

    :confused:
     
  7. firestar

    firestar member

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    I'm going to suggest the .243

    It has better ballistics than the .223 but not quite the kick of the .308
     
  8. jmbg29

    jmbg29 member

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    Try hunting them with a 28 gauge. :p :D ;)
     
  9. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Member

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    Try one of those slip on recoil pads they sell at Wal-Mart.

    A while ago one of my friends felt the need to buy a Winchester Model 70 in .270 caliber, the recoil on that beast was pretty nasty (mainly due to the fact that none of us had any knowledge of how to shoot a rifle and would hold it any old way that would let us peer into the scope) after a few range sessions that resulted in sore shoulders we took a trip to the shooting section of Wal-Mart and came across these slip on recoil pads they even had one that matched the black plastic the stock was made of. It was immediately purchased by the rifles owner and installed. The next range session the .270 was very comfortable and it became enjoyable to shoot.
     
  10. DAL

    DAL Member

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    I'd nix the idea of shooting at any large animal at 600 yards. That's about twice as far as most anyone should be shooting at an animal. The chance of wounding is too great.

    To paraphrase Boston T. Party, you've got to be able to take in order to give. If you want a cartridge that will reach out to 600 yards accurately, it's going to have some recoil, at least until someone can figure out a way around the laws of physics.
    DAL
     
  11. yankytrash

    yankytrash Member

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    Na boing, it completely opens the gas system so that only the fire from the tracer ignites the rocket.

    Try it with your frankenFAL. It's a good thing to know.
     
  12. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    The recoil of a 308, in both bolt and semi, is easily handled in a tee shirt. Your shooting position can cause felt recoil to seem harder. I dislike shooting from a bench for this reason. Besides being uncomfortable and impractical, it seems to make felt recoil a lot heaver. Fired prone from a mat, its no problem, and fired from sitting or offhand and you can shoot all day long.
    I had a 16" Winchester Trapper in 44 mag. Using factory loads or the equivilent, the little rifle has a pretty good whack to it. Its defineitly not a 223 out of an AR. You would notice the difference right away, the 223 is like shooting a 22. If you use 44 special loads with lead bullets, its a pussy cat. A lot more fun to shoot. Even with hotter factory loads, these rifles are still a short range gun. 100 yards would be a long shot for them.
     
  13. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Why not...

    An AR-10 in .260 Remington? Flat-shooting, light recoil, familiar weapon system... ;)
     
  14. TIMC

    TIMC Member

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    If you don't want the kick but can stand the noise, get a good muzzle break. Combine the break with a heavy gun and felt rcoil will be greatly reduced. I have a KDF break on my Sako cambered in 300 UM and it is no worse than shooting a 308. This gun shoots very well at 500 yards, I have not tried it at longer distances because of no long distance ranges in my area but I'm sure it will shoot well beyond that accurately.
    A good muzzle break on a heavy barreled .308 should have a very light felt recoil.
     
  15. scotjute

    scotjute Member

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    Whenever you mention no or low recoil, powerful, flat-hitting and accurate bullet placement, the Swedish Mauser round, the 6.5x55 mm is what immediately comes to mind. It is absolutelly devastating on deer and should be good for shots out to 400 yds if you think you're that good of a shot (I'm not). This is an absolutely addicting round once you shoot it.

    Note however that most hunters probably would not recommend shooting any animal past about 400 yds. because the ability to ensure a clean kill is greatly reduced, both bullet placement and loss of power.

    As far as shooting pistol caliber carbines, I have a 20" lever gun in .357. It has literally no kick and very little noise (much less than my 6" revolver). These things are fun to shoot. But these type guns are normally looked at as 100-125 yd. maximum killing range guns. I contemplated deer hunting with it, but decided against it, simply due to reduced ability to ensure a clean kill at 100 yds with it versus using my sporterized Swedish Mauser with its "heat-seeking" bullets!
     
  16. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    NOTE TO ALL

    I HAVE EDITED MANY OF YOUR POSTS THAT REFERENCED KANNONFYRE'S ORIGINAL QUESTION. I am glad to see that you all too the High Road but repeating what he said wasn't a help. No biggie, the mess is cleaned up.


    Kannonfyre, check your email.
     
  17. goon

    goon Member

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    Since you have only shot an AR-15, you are kinda spoiled. The 223 has no recoil, so no matter what you move up to, you will notice the difference.

    A heavybarreled 308 bolt action will still be pretty easy on the shoulder. For comparison, I shot my 308 jungle carbine yesterday, and the recoil out of it isn't really that bad, despite the narrow steel buttplate. As I recall, the Savage 10FP that I had was a pussycat.
    Or better yet, get a gun that you know will kick, and just get used to it.
    After years of shooting, it takes some pretty wicked recoil to get my attention.

    For long range work, a 44 mag is more than less useless.
    Stick with a real rifle cartridge.
     
  18. boing

    boing Member

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    yankytrash:
    Opens up the gas system to where? There are only two ways for gas to escape the bore: Up the gas port and out the muzzle. Removing the gas plug in my rifle I can trace the gas path through the plug, and in the grenade position, the gas port is closed off. All gas escapes via the muzzle.

    Maybe this conversation belongs in another thread...
     
  19. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    "Flipping" the gas plug will only make it recoil as hard as possible. It will recoil as hard as a bolt gun then.
     
  20. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    (As hard as a 10 lb bolt gun recoils!)

    I think you're exagerating the 600 yd game shot. Maybe Steve Smith could do it, I could not. In that light (300 to 400 yds is more realistic) a .308 would suffice. Or maybe even a 7Mag. 7mag is a pussycat to shoot, albeit loud. I'm not up on the ballistics of a 7Mag at 3 to 400 yds, but think that it'd be ok for large game.

    Don't confuse loud with recoil.
     
  21. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    We have dicussions like this daily in Shotguns. :)

    With proper shooting position, .308 is a real pussy cat in the recoil department. I've done several hundred .308 in an afternoon with no problem.
     
  22. mashaffer

    mashaffer Member

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    Recoil, long range, pistol calibers and animals

    Regarding:

    Animals at long range: Don't do it. Regardless of accuracy there are too many variables such as wind, animal movement (the bullet takes time to travel) etc. 300 yards is more than far enough for game shooting.

    Long range with managable recoil: I agree with those suggesting 6.5 - 7mm calibers. For target shooting get a relatively heavy rifle to keep the felt recoil down. 6.5 Swede, 7mm Mauser and .280 remington can all be very accurate in a good rifle. If you have a milspec rifle "accurized" you would already have the heavy rifle part built in. For long distance you will (in my opinion) want to avoid light for caliber bullets as they start out fast but slow down quickly. Thus the desire for a heavy rifle.

    Pistol caliber lever actions: Get one with a nice peep sight and give it a try. I find the lever action rifle to be the most natural action but YMMV. A good LA can be quite accurate but they are not usually used for long in the pistol calibers.
     
  23. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    I think a .308 would be fine, but....


    The thing about all this is that the real bottom line isn't the caliber, or the equipment, or even the target. Its the shooter. Beyond that, ethics play a big part. Knowing that I can hold about a 10" group on a target with open sights at 600 is is fine, and maybe I could hold 6-7" with a scope at that distance. That's one thing. Taking a shot at an animal at that distance is another story and I don't think I'd do it. The possibility of misjudging the wind or accidentally moving the rifle is too great. I can take a "miss" on the line...it will have me in a bad mood for the whole match, but I can take it. I would not want to have a bad hit on an animal though. Now if this were a target that could shoot back, and I were 600 yards away and being a civilian, I'd just find my way out of trouble. 600 yards is hardly self-defense, and at that distance I doubt the other fellow knows I'm there so I might as well leave. Besides, make a bad shot on that target and you might have all hell rain down on you.
     
  24. Scooter

    Scooter Member

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    You've been firing a mouse gun with practically no recoil in the AR-15 (or whatever). Any caliber capable of one-shot kills at 600 yards would have to develop quite a bit of energy so I don't think there is any way to avoid recoil entirely. Recoil can be reduced to some extent by using a ported barrel or using a recoil absorber (a mercury-filled tube in the stock). Semiauto rifles typically reduce the felt recoil but I don't know of many semiautos in 600 yard calibers.
     
  25. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    Suck it up, get a 308 in a m1a/m14. I have put 5-600 rds downrange in a few hours with no ill effects due to recoil.
    If you are that sensitive to recoil, 600 yds is beyond your capability with any cartridge that can go the distance you require.

    Good to 800 yds if you are up to it.

    Forget shooting game at that distance with anything.
     
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