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Wanna see Open Carry accepted by the majority?

Discussion in 'Activism' started by TexasSkyhawk, Apr 14, 2008.

  1. TexasSkyhawk

    TexasSkyhawk Internet SEAL

    Dec 17, 2007
    Been reading the Wal-Mart and other threads on Open Carry.

    For the record, I'm all for Open-Carry. What I'm not for is the belligerant "kiss my ass and stick it in your face" attitudes of some who believe the world revolves around them.

    So, wanna make your statement (have your cake) and prove your point at the same time (eat it too)?

    Organize. Organize for at least one day.

    Organize and participate in National Open Carry Day.

    It'll take some work, but at the end of the day, it'll be worth it.

    Each state rifle or gun association needs to spearhead it. Basically, each state association has their individual chapters or regions or districts put out the word that on "such and such date," we encourage all law-abiding and able gun owners to Open Carry wherever they go no tha tday and wherever legal and/are allowed.

    The following are general thoughts:

    • I would strongly suggest that the state association respective to each state, find and make available the exact state statute(s) regarding Open Carry. I would also strongly suggest that any and each gun owner who participates in National Open Carry Day have a printed copy of it on them.

    (Yeah yeah. You can bore me with your "rights" and "if it's not written down as being illegal, then it IS legal and I don't need no stinking piece of paper. Remember: Think ATTITUDE. You're trying to make some POSITIVE points and project a POSITIVE image in order to garner POSITIVE results.)

    • If your employer prohibits weapons at your place of work, I (just me personally) would probably call in sick on National Open Carry Day. If every gun-owner did that, employers might figure out how many of their good, quality, trustworthy employees are gun owners . . .

    • Since there will be zilch way to keep this completely under wraps, there will be businesses in a panic to make "No Guns Allowed" signs. Fine. Not only do you not shop/trade there, but make a note of any and all businesses you see with such signs.

    • Compile your lists and post them on every gun-forum, gun-site, pro-2A website you can find. It is a business owner's inheritent right to refuse service for any reason. It is my right to refuse to do business with such people for any reason. Between one fourth and one fifth of this country owns guns. I don't know of any business in today's climate and economy that could survive a permanent lost of between 20% and 25% of their business.

    • Do not look to play "cops" or "soldiers" or any other such nonsense on National Open Carry Day. You're citizens with a Constitutional Right to arm yourselves--not wannabe cops or soldiers looking to save the day simply because you're packing.

    • Make every effort to be friendly and professional with anyone and everyone you encounter--especially law enforcement. The media will have a National Bowel Movement and be searching and digging for ANY gun-related incidents they can exploit. First place they always go is to the cops. Don't give the cops any reason to be anything but impressed with your conduct.

    If this could happen on one collective day, it would be incredibly powerful. If not, it needs to happen on a state-wide basis.

    It just takes a little organization, planning, leadership and commitment.

    Too bad we can't do this in Texas.

  2. SomeKid

    SomeKid Participating Member

    Aug 25, 2005
    Or, just OC every chance you get, like I do.

    Had a guy ask me about it a few days ago.

    "You a cop?" he asks. Nope, I respond.

    "You a security guard?" he asks. While thinking whats it matter if I was? Nope, I respond.

    "So why you carrying a gun?" He asks. "Because I want to" I say in a flat voice while staring him in the eye.

    Thats all there is to it. Be free, do what you want, and don't cower in fear begging for the approval of your fellow man. This is the land of the free, not land of those who strive for approval.
  3. kevindsingleton

    kevindsingleton New Member

    Jan 2, 2008
    Beaver County, PA
    I think Texas Skyhawk is onto something. One of the biggest problems that groups of citizens face in the US is being dis- or unorganized. If smokers would organize, there would be no "no smoking" ordinances making them second-class citizens. If parents would organize, we could reign in the NEA and take back our schools. If residents would organize, we could push gang-bangers into the oceans. And, if gun owners would organize, we could produce a positive image of RKBA, elect pro-2A legislators, and put an end to gun-grabbing and rights-usurping.

    It's not a bad idea. I'm interested to see where it goes.
  4. VARifleman

    VARifleman Participating Member

    Feb 6, 2005
    Northern VA
    Good thread, should probably be in activism though.
  5. JesseL

    JesseL Senior Member

    Aug 26, 2004
    Prescott, AZ
    I may have a slightly warped view due to my locale, but as Arfin Greebly was saying in another thread; the ultimate goal is to make open carry unremarkable.

    I don't think this is a battle we can win with big dramatic efforts. I see a need for guerrilla tactics here. Think of the old story of boiling a frog. We need to slowly infiltrate the public awareness, get people used to seeing people with guns before they ever consciously realize what's going on.

    I don't see any need to make a big deal out of OC. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and OC whenever I feel like it. I won't go out of my way to draw attention to myself. I'll just be one more average guy, going about his day, who happens to have a pistol on his hip - unremarkable.

    On the other hand maybe I'm wrong. Big demonstrations and protests seem to have been effective for other civil rights movements, so maybe similar tactics will work for OC too?
  6. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Senior Member

    Feb 21, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Neither of you are wrong. It's not an either-or thing.
  7. TexasSkyhawk

    TexasSkyhawk Internet SEAL

    Dec 17, 2007
    Yes and no.

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, I know a thing or to about guerilla warfare and tactics. When you're fighting for rights, guerilla tactics ain't the way to go.

    If the blacks had tried that back in 50's and 60's, I doubt it would've gotten them too far. As it was, they had to work double-hard to counter the shenanigans of the idiot Black Panthers.

    The Klan utilized guerilla tactics--anyone around here respect them? I sure as hell don't.

    Also, ask any biologist or even any coon-ass from around my old parts . . . that frog will sure as hell jump out of the pot when it gets too warm. Why do you think the expression "he reached his boiling point" came from?

    No doubt, that is one way to make your case--especially given that you reside in a gun-friendly, OC-friendly state.

    But what about your fellow gun-owners who aren't as fortunate as you?

    A theme I used to write on quite often during my days of working with the NRA advertising/marketing team was an old Abe Lincoln line about united we stand, divided we fall.

    That is even MORE true today than it was when I was working on the business during the Clinton debacle. Look at the momentum CCL got when state groups helped each other out by sharing information, sources, statistics, knowledge, experience, etc.

    Individually, perhaps we could've gotten the same results--possibly even by the year 2030. But when you put the will of a large group of people together, combine it with the individual talents each person has, and an objective, you can and will get things done.

    I would love to see a reciprocal Open-Carry statute among states.

  8. yokel

    yokel Participating Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Alas, this is a political non-starter here in these parts.

    It's not going to get any traction so long as MD remains a de facto single-party despotic state.
  9. JesseL

    JesseL Senior Member

    Aug 26, 2004
    Prescott, AZ
    I agree 100%.

    I'm just thinking that for many of us, this isn't exactly a fight for rights. We've already got the statutory right to OC (though obviously those like yourself in Texas or Florida don't). What we don't all have is the social acceptance.

    Gaining social acceptance seems to me to be fundamentally different than winning legal rights. Reading back over the plan you outlined in the opening post, I don't see anything in it I disagree with. I guess all I'd add is that we should organize open carry days as often as possible (bi-monthly?).

    Count me in for whatever happens.
  10. 6_gunner

    6_gunner Active Member

    Dec 4, 2006
    Well, I think TexasSkyhawk and JesseL both have good points.

    Anyone so inclined should open carry in order to acclimate the public to the presence of guns. However, I also think that a national open carry day would send a powerful message to anti-gun businesses and also show people how many respectable and law-abiding citizens carry firearms (accomplishing much the same thing as the other suggestion, but in a much more dramatic fashion).

    I do not personally practice open carry in urban enviroments, as I prefer not to draw attention to myself. I don't like to explain myself or to debate with people. I like to be left alone, and open carrying doesn't get you left alone.

    I often open carry in rural environments where there are fewer people. The people I've run into while openly carrying have either not appeared to notice, or else appeared apprehensive at first, but relaxed when I smiled and greeted them.

    Having said all that, I'll say that I'm not one to carry openly every day, but I would be willing to participate in a national or state-wide open carry day. I would also be willing to participate in a boycott of any businesses which posted no-weapons signs. To those who routinely carry openly, I applaud you, but it's just not for me.
  11. icebones

    icebones Active Member

    Feb 2, 2008
    You ain't from around here, KY
    i strongly agree with open carry, but lets not scare the sheep.

    remember in the 1960's when the black panthers marched on the streets with their guns?

    worked out well for them didnt it...

    if you do open carry, let me suggest that you dress in appropraite clothing. which is more presentable to an avarage joe?

    ---a guy wearing a cut-off flannel shirt, with a beer bottle in his back pocket and a .44 revolver stick haphazardly in his home-made belt

    ---or a guy, wearing jeans, a common every day shirt and a person who acts with a professional demenor, his carry weapon holstered?

    the point im trying to get across is, when if you do open carry, you are representing gun owners in the public eye. dont put a hex on our image as law-abiding responsable americans...

    i dont have much money, and i shurely cant afford dress clothes, but dress like you are a responsable person...

    anybody agree with me?
  12. 6_gunner

    6_gunner Active Member

    Dec 4, 2006
    I agree with you, icebones, but I still think the open carry day is a good idea. We should just all dress and behave in a professional manner, like you suggested.

    I don't think anybody is suggesting that we march in the streets, but just to carry openly while we go about our business in our usual manner.
  13. Clipper

    Clipper Senior Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Mt. Morris, MI.
    Jesse, you and Texas need to lighten up. He's talking about guerilla tactics FIGURATIVELY...

    OCing quietly and with dignity and class will win the day, not making an in-your-face event out of it...It needs to be a non-event for people to see a free person OC.
  14. mek42

    mek42 Member

    Mar 21, 2007
    upstate NY
    OC is illegal in NY, but I do hope the rest of you guys have fun!
  15. Jdude

    Jdude Member

    Jul 19, 2007
    I'm in. I don't even know what day it will be but I'll be open carrying on that day, the one before, and the one after.
  16. Pat-inCO

    Pat-inCO Active Member

    Feb 21, 2008
    I guess you could say I'm just down right lazy. I really do not like
    to spend my time (some would say waste it) arguing with law
    enforcement about my right to openly carry a gun. Not when there is
    such an easy way to avoid it. I use a "Safepacker" that is available
    from Dillon or directly from the manufacturer (also in Az). NO I do
    not get any money for this piece.

    I carry in the Safepacker any time I'm away from my house. Do many
    people that see it "know" that I'm packing? I'll bet that almost half
    do. I work as a communications volunteer for the police about two or
    three times per year. In each case, the officers will do a double
    take on the Safepacker, smile and go on about their business. If I
    were to OC, I'd be told to go home. I'll bet that is because with the
    obvious CCW, I've proven I'm willing to go through the hassle of
    obtaining the permit AND (notice the big AND there) they do not have
    to explain to some sheeple why I carry a gun. Saves us both time.

    I'm coming to believe that some who OC actually do that to attract
    attention. Let's face it, no one can OC for more than ten minutes and
    not see someone else react. Are there places that OC makes total sense?
    ABSOLUTELY, but most of those places are not in the cities! Why then
    would anyone want to attract attention to themselves and their gun?
    Ya got me Phred! But it is obvious that some do.

    I'm reminded of the number of brain dead teenagers that DEMAND THEIR
    RIGHTS! As if, simply by being born, everyone suddenly owed them. I'm
    sure every one of you have seen them. It's their RIGHT to say what
    ever they want, where ever they want, ignoring (good?) manners. They
    also seem to think that it is their RIGHT to liter and make a mess
    for everyone else (WHAT? ME PICK UP AFTER MYSELF?). After all, their
    rights MUST supercede every one else's. They forget that THEIR rights
    END when they are about to infringe on someone else's rights
    (remember "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?). Sheeple do,
    after all, have rights to. Why not just let them go on their oblivious
    ways and stay out of mine?

    What many choose to forget is that our "rights" are not God granted.
    If they were God granted then there would NOT be such transgressions
    as China, Tibet, the old Russia, Iraq, Iran, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
    Our "rights" are granted by our society, with reasonable expectation
    that we will, in return, abide by the expectations of the society that
    grants us those rights. That means that your "rights" - END - where
    they are about to conflict with the "rights" of another citizen of
    OUR society. If that is too difficult for you to comprehend, I suggest
    you try living in another country for a while and see just how many
    "rights" you suddenly DO NOT HAVE, that are common place in the United

    I am NOT suggesting that you cease OC. I am suggesting that you find
    an argument - far - beyond "I'VE GOT MY RIGHTS" as your justification
    to others, for what you choose. While it is no skin off my nose if you
    choose to be known as a brain dead teenager, it DOES infringe upon MY
    rights by requiring me to explain to many, many sheeple that you are,
    in fact, allowed to OC and that you are not really a threat to them.
    That puts me in the position of cleaning up after you, because YOU
    are far too lazy to explain your choices in a calm and reasonable way.

    I would really like to see at least twenty-five people show us some
    calm, reasonable "arguments" for OC that DO NOT include "my rights",
    or "I'm allowed to do that" or any of the other brain dead answers.
    Calm, articulate replies are solicited. Those with other modes will
    stand out as such.
  17. JesseL

    JesseL Senior Member

    Aug 26, 2004
    Prescott, AZ
    In another thread I stated some of my reasons for open carry as:

    • Comfort. It's just more comfortable to wear an OWB holster, and not have the gun rubbing my skin.
    • Education. I think it's important for people to see a peaceable citizen carrying a firearm, and see the lack of ensuing violence.
    • Deterence. I think most criminals are inherently cowardly. They're not going to be interested in risking their skin to take on an armed victim. They'll find an easier mark.
    • Power. When you're not trying to keep it hidden, you can carry a gun that's much bigger. Bigger guns are easier to shoot, hold more rounds, and hold bigger rounds.

    However, I strenuously object to framing the discussion in these terms. This country was founded on the principle of liberty. A free society does not ask you to justify the exercise of your rights, rather any infringement of rights must be thoroughly justified.

    How would you feel if you someone said:
    Does that have a slightly offensive and presumptuous ring to you?

    Also, this is patently untrue:
    I can open carry every day and go weeks or months without seeing any reaction.
  18. TexasSkyhawk

    TexasSkyhawk Internet SEAL

    Dec 17, 2007

    There's a little town in far West Texas the wife I and like to fly to. I was born and raised in West Texas (though, not THAT far west) and what you'll find in many West Texas towns and cities is that we may be polarized when it comes to politics, but not gun rights.

    Sarah Brady and her crap is about as welcome where I'm from as fire ants inside a tube of Preparation H.

    In this far West Texas town, my wife and I land, secure the airplane and then walk to the corral where a caretaker has us a couple of horses waiting. First thing I do is strap on my shoulder rig that holds my S&W Model 29 with the hogleg barrel. My wife straps on a holster (hip) that holds her S&W Model 66 four-inch.

    And then it's into town we ride.

    The majority of people in this town carry openly--and in outright defiance of Texas' "no open carry" laws. One of favorite folks in that town to have a chicken-fried steak with is a Texas Ranger who is good friends with one of my cousins, also a Texas Ranger. Bill doesn't bat an eye at all the guns being open-carried in defiance of our "law."

    And if anyone could straighten things out in a bigtime hurry, it would be Bill. I've known Bill since my special agent days. He was a Green Beret in Vietnam--came home with two Silver Stars and matching Purple Hearts. He's the real deal and a legendary lawman in those parts.

    But Bill don't give a damn about law-abiding folks exercising their rights. And, want to venture what the crime rate is in that town, let alone the county?


    Everyone, literally, is armed and everyone, literally knows it. It sends a clear, unmistakable message to criminals and would be miscreants that not only are they and their kind not welcome, but they and their antics will not be tolerated.

    Imagine an entire nation like this little Texas town.

    Well, for one, uniformed police officers do it everyday. Why do you suppose that is? And why do you suppose police officers are rarely mugged or carjacked or randomly assaulted or raped (in the event of female officers) or even jacked with by would-be thugs and bullies?

    Yet, how often do police officers actually draw or brandish their weapon, let alone actually use it?

    I know this will fall under your "rights" argument, but shouldn't I, JesseL and every other law-abiding citizen have that same right of deterrent that uniformed police officers do?

    Another situation to consider . . .

    Lot of folks are delivery drivers, and not just pizza delivery. Milk, beer, beverages, goods to retail stores, couriers, etc. In the wrong neighborhoods, their odds of having trouble increase--so much so that many companies do not let their drivers work in certain neighborhoods.

    But for independent contractors, that's not always a viable financial choice.

    If I were such an individual, I would much rather carry openly for both the deterrent factor as well as the speed and ease of access factor should I need my weapon.

    How about folks who utilize public transportation? I once worked a detail in Washington DC on their subway and mass transit system. Saw a lot of "yokings" on various people.

    Again, the criminals would be able to see real quick who is sheep and who is most definitely not sheep. And should the criminal be stupid enough . . . well, it's a lot faster to draw out of an open holster than an inside-the-waist holster.

    I know--I've had to do both back in my cop days. Unfortunately, I was one of those long-haired undercover guys and the only time I got to carry open was when I had a raid jacket on.

    Then, there is the comfort factor. For years and years, I carried a SigP220 inside my waistband. And while I got used to it, it was never as comfortable as a traditional holster rig.

    A good friend of mine was with one of our sister agencies, the U.S. Marshals Service. Like me, he got in trouble in a lot because he preferred chasing fugitives and arresting them as opposed to waxing up the lips and kissing a supervisor's ass while playing "Mother May I?" in regards to doing his job.

    He wore sport jackets because normally a marshal's weapon has to be concealed. His wife was constantly going nuts trying to patch up the spots in his coats where his gun had rubbed and ruined the liner.

    I got a cousin who's a big city detective and who looks like what anyone would picture a Texas lawman to be--tall, silver hair, thick mustache, narrow eyes and looks like a cowboy in every sense of the word. Of course, he IS a cowboy--one helluva bareback bronc rider and team-roper.

    His manner of dress, like mine and our Texas Ranger cousin and that of most of our family, is western, cowboy style. If we're going to carry armed (and we always do), the holster looks like it's just part of our normal outfit.

    So, I'll add fashion to the list . . . (half-serious, half-kidding)

    Just my take on it.

  19. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Elder

    Jan 1, 2003
    DFW Area
    Winning the hearts and minds...
  20. Jolly Rogers

    Jolly Rogers Active Member

    Feb 19, 2008
    Northern Virginia
    "So why are you carrying a gun?" He asks. " Because a cop is too heavy" I say with a smile.
    There...fixed it for you.

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