Quantcast

We are going to have to give up something

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Sgt.Murtaugh, Dec 19, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. grahluk

    grahluk Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    27
    We can dig in our heels and throw all the logic and understanding of firearms and national history at them that we want. Logic and facts are great but they don't really work in politics. Writing your representatives, contributing to advocacy groups, hitting polls, and adding your principled arguments in the public debate are the first and finest things you can do. Still if you think obstinately saying NO in any and all forms is a strategy prepare to be bitterly disappointed this time around. The public tide has turned. Yes there is no short supply of naive, ignorant, and/or deceptive propaganda being slung out there that's helping the anti's at the moment but this incident in close proximity to recent incidents will demand that they come away with something no matter how ineffectual or misguided it is. Right now they are trotting out the same old discredited positions and bad legislation with the revelation and improvement (saracasm added) that previous attempts didn't work because they just didn't go far enough. If we just sit back and say NO while they do this the choice taken will be theirs for lack of better options but be certain something will be passed. That they are doing this tells me they are totally disingenuous about a "discussion" to help minimize and prevent gun crime. No discussion has been entered only dusting off old ideas and readying them to shove through congress. What we need to do is point out the shoddy thinking behind these bills (which we do) but more importantly offer better alternatives. My thoughts.

    Training and arming teachers while full of logic is pure fantasy and makes us look loonie to any and all americans without practical experience with firearms. Teachers have many requirements to meet to manage, engage, and educate our youngest citizens. Adding armed guard to that list takes them off mission and points out the failures of other parts of our society. Nobody's going to buy it. Third grade art teachers being required to carry and be competent with a sidearm is a non starter for almost everyone but the most delusional firearms enthusiasts.

    Armed guards in schools while a better more realistic idea will probably not fly politically or financially on a large scale or public dime. If you go there then you'll have to add armed guards in shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants, public parks, and everywhere else people congregate in numbers. Maybe some places will volunteer to arm and protect their premises themselves. I could see some expensive private schools promoting well trained and armed guards on campus. All the same, people will buy drastic infringements to our rights before they accept moving about in a society that scenario paints.

    Do promote concealed carry for citizens. While not police officers who are charged and trained to engage and deal with conflict resolution it should be
    stressed that properly trained and licensed citizens that carry are a benefit to society when an immediate threat to self and others is present and law enforcement is not.

    The gun show loophole they speak of is one area that they may have a point about. Yes they are wrong about dealers at gun shows but without being so pedantic we must admit that buying from an FFL and buying from an individual in a FTF transaction makes a farce of the whole idea of background checks. We already have to use FFL's to sell and transfer weapons across state lines. I don't see it as an unreasonable burden that we use the services of an FFL for all transfers and sales of serialized weapons. That frees the seller from scrutiny or liability if that weapon is used in a crime at some point down the road and provides consistency of the background check to ensure weapons aren't being transferred to individuals who would not be eligible for retail purchases of firearms.

    "assault weapons" and magazine capacity. This is the toughest topic to defuse and the one that people are most misinformed and hysterical about. Pure argument for original intent of the 2nd amendment is weak and perceived as ideological and abstract. Yes military style weapons are exactly what the 2nd amendment intends to be available and in civilian possession. The standard argument is that we have a peerless standing army and robust law enforcement agencies and the need for citizen soldiers is archaic. That outcome is more a perversion of history than anything. Switzerland is often cited as an example of unaltered military hardware being abundant and common among a peaceful population. It's also more true to the intent of our constitution regarding military organization. Yes our military is one of our most respected national institutions and one we at least have some sense we are getting our money's worth from. Some would argue that is exactly what we need our RKBA for lest at some time in future history that institution is turned against our descendants by a corrupt and autocratic political class. Maybe far fetched at the moment but not inconceivable. The laws we pass for today's expediencies may be perverted and used for interests contrary to the welfare of the populace. The proposition of a permanent AWB will distinctly remove from the citizenry the familiarity of contemporary arms and their evolution. Instead of prohibition how about regulation? I know many here will bristle at this thought but if the citizenry at large cannot discern between automatic, semi-automatic, clips, and magazines how about make it simple for them. Group all military derived weaponry under class 3 classification without prohibition or restriction of their use or sale. Class 3 items are better regulated with a process already in place for private citizens to obtain them. It could be pointed out how few crimes have ever been committed by class 3 licensed owners. A $200 tax stamp on an AR15 that is available provided you pass the application process is better than the AR15 that is banned.

    As far as mental health and the criminal aspect of the issues at hand I would not have an informed opinion on where to start. All I can say is that gun crimes usually follow patterns. These contemporary mass shooters follow such a strong profile I don't see why resources can't be marshaled to target and address those at risk.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  2. 7.5-Swiss

    7.5-Swiss Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Messages:
    37
    We'll have you fanatics to blame when the next AWB is permanent.
     
  3. Skribs

    Skribs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,807
    Location:
    Lakewood, Washington
    7.5-swiss, like I said, if any restrictions are made, it will not be because I caved in. Yes we've had some wins, but every time we lose is a bad time for us, and we are not wrong in saying that the eventual goal of the antis is complete confiscation. I have a coworker that has flat-out said she wants us to go to a UK system (including a traditional monarchy). I have no doubt in my mind that a "compromise" on our part is really a loss for us and a win for them. I don't want to lose, and I don't want to give them any more credibility in winning.
     
  4. wannabeagunsmith

    wannabeagunsmith Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    THEY brought this on with their stupid "gun free zones" we shouldnt have to give a damn thing!
     
  5. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,908
    Location:
    Arizona
    Read post No. 146 again.

    We have not lost any fight, and we won't unless some give up and won't stand up for their rights!

    Hopefully no one will be dumb enough to believe what the urban/leftist media is peddling. They're kind of news is carefully selected propaganda. Do you think they'll report that gun sales are so hot that sometimes NICS is hours behind trying to make backround checks? Dealers can't get enough guns nor ammunition to fill the demand. Congress is tied up with s fight over taxes and the Fiscal Cliff issue, and after that they want to go home and not come back until January.

    We don't have to give the gun-banners anything unless we get something substantial in return.

    The men who created this country didn't pussyfoot around... Are we something less?
     
  6. grahluk

    grahluk Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    27
    wannabeagusmith- Are you saying they were asking for this? Really? I have an acquaintance who's daughters went to that school and lost their friends. He is very pro RKBA but were you to say that in his presence you wouldn't be standing before the last word left your mouth. Not the high road by a long shot. Just saying.

    That kind of thinking is right up there with saying a beautiful woman is asking to be raped for dressing attractively.
     
  7. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,773
    Location:
    Illinois`
    Why should I have to give up ANY of my rights because a mentally ill child murdered his mother, stole firearms, and commited mass murder.

    I didn't do it, I wasn't there.
    I wish I had been there. 26 people might still be alive today...
     
  8. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    17,387
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    And we'll have trolls like you to blame for weakening the real message.

    Wow, so how have the Israelis done it successfully for so long? One Texas district has been doing it since 2008. And this part,
    is also wrong - nobody FORCES anyone who is not an on duty law enforcement officer to carry a sidearm.

    If you guys want to give up and start conceding your rights without a fight, I respectfully suggest that this would not be the forum to attempt to advance that idea. Perhaps DU might be more receptive?
     
  9. HOWARD J

    HOWARD J Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Location:
    S/E Michigan
    You need to give up something---
    Stop any hate ( I have heard in the past) for the NRA
    Get out your checkbook & send some $$$$ to the NRA
    They are going to need it.
     
  10. 7.5-Swiss

    7.5-Swiss Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Messages:
    37
    I think that there are some antis who are legitimate believers in complete confiscation - and there are a lot of people who are in the anti camp right now because of this recent tragedy who are not. Those are the people we should consider - they want to do something to prevent this and they believe that an AWB (or whatever else they're going to push) is the the right fix. I think they're wrong, but I recognize they are powerful and sticking our head in the sand is only going to screw us.

    Calling for armed teachers or abolishing gun-free zones is not going to resonate outside of a few rural communities like it or not. It makes us look brash, unsophisticated, and fanatical. I agree and believe that an armed teacher could have stopped this - but that is not going to be taken seriously on the national stage. We need to be politically astute instead of fanatical or our rights are in serious trouble.
     
  11. gc70

    gc70 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,212
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Good; let's all help give the public something that actually addresses the problem.

    I want to support a solution - and I believe that solution involves actions related to mental health.

    But I will not scheme and plan to give up part of my gun rights when I know that would do nothing to address the problem.
     
  12. stonecutter2

    stonecutter2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,204
    Location:
    Bloomington, IL
    Hallelujah, someone gets it.

    There are ways we can strengthen our rights and give the public the change they want.

    My message to representatives involves solving the problem of mentally ill people getting guns.
    That is the problem.

    These ill people didn't "snap.". They were known to be "different."

    It's time to secure our rights by clamping down on these "different" people having any access to guns.
     
  13. Skribs

    Skribs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,807
    Location:
    Lakewood, Washington
    7.5, the problem is that when a new AWB goes into effect, the "pure" antis can tell the semi antis "see, it didn't work, because we need MOAR!"

    From the perspective of one of these fencers, if someone commits a crime with a machine gun, it makes sense when the antis say "ban machine guns". After all, we're still leaving everything else for civilians.

    Then a crime is commited with a semi-automatic, so the fencers agree that banning semi-automatics is fine. You see where I'm going with this?

    ETA: Stonecutter, if this is what you are talking about regarding compromise I agree with you. We do need to fix the problem. But I don't consider that a compromise. I would consider it a mutual effort with a similar goal in mind. If they can leave gun rights alone (or better yet: make them stronger) but focus on the root issues instead, I would be behind them 100%.
     
  14. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,522
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    That is why the St Louis County, MO chief of police called for just that, because it only resonates in rural areas, not the largest urban area in the state which he serves.
     
  15. captain awesome

    captain awesome Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,166
    Location:
    Mesa, AZ
    Give something up? SCREW THAT. Don't have a defeated attitude, when you do, you are surely defeated. Fight for everything. You give it up, you never get it back.
     
  16. MikeG

    MikeG Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2003
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Pueblo West Colorado
    Asking millions of law abiding gun owners to cede some of their rights because of the actions of a few unhinged people is wrong. It is like banning automobiles because some criminals use them to get away after the crime.

    I don't believe guns are the problem anyway. It is the actions of a few of the sickest in a sick society that needs to be addressed.

    Likewise, if the antis fear my firearms, it can't be solved by laws aimed at me, but psychiatric help for the phobics.

    And for those who say the Founding Fathers didn't foresee our firearms so the Second Amendment doesn't apply:

    The First Amendment couldn't have foreseen TV, radio, the Web and other weapons of mass prevarication. Should we ban those?
     
  17. Wes B

    Wes B Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    67
    I like these kinds of ideas.

    We don't have to give up anything We should let our elected officials know that we will vote them out of office if they vote for any restrictions period.

    I'd say push these ideas like tax credits for ... at the same time putting them on notice.

    Now, who is going to run in opposition in strong support of the 2nd Amendment.
     
  18. PT92

    PT92 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Show Me State
    Mr. White,

    IMO your comments are among the most intelligent I have read yet in response to this horrific incident.

    Thanks both for providing the necessary clarity and strong (yet respectfully articulated) criticism of the Antis dreadfully despicable behavior which as we all know began moments after the crime (absent allowing for even a moment of seemingly obligatory mourning for the victims families).
     
  19. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    59,055
    Location:
    Alabama
    Seems like many in this thread are. I am sure some are just anti's trying to spread doom and gloom, but many are gun owners who are scared, some of it from listening to antis pretending to be gun owners willing to cave in, and think the only way to "win" is compromise. That is the farthest thing from the truth.
     
  20. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    7,090
    Location:
    West of the Big Muddy, East of the Rockies and Nor
    Our wonderful, slow, messy Democracy

    Having read posts on several forums including THR I have learned two things;

    1. How successful the liberals have become at removing teaching of American Government in public schools.

    2. How wonderful our system of Government is.

    Democracy is designed to be a slow, messy process. Our forefathers wisely
    not only separated the power of the Presidency from Congress but also within Congress itself with the Senate representing the power of a Central Government (the States) and the House representing the individual. Our system is designed to prevent one group running roughshod over the desires of the other.

    I have read many posts of gun owners that are convinced that Obama with a stroke of the pen is going to severely restrict ownership of firearms, high capacity magazines and ammunition. While the use of Executive Orders has expanded it can not be used to write and enact new laws without the consent of Congress.

    The second assumption is the majority of members in both Houses of Congress are going to craft and quickly pass anti-gun laws. On it’s face this idea has merit. Playing on the emotions with a willing media it limits a rational, logical discussion of the true causes and real solutions. But this is where the beauty of our slow, messy Democratic process shines. Passing laws involves crafting language that is not only acceptable to the majority of Congress but withstand the Supreme Court, debate, committee hearings in both Houses, debate, procedural steps, more debate, pressure from special interest groups and finally the voters.

    If there is one thing for certain is most members of Congress want to be reelected. This means they pay the most attention to the voters, not the larger non-voting population, but those who actually get out and vote.

    To be sure some Districts are so anti-gun that pro 2A voters don’t have a prayer of a voice. This is where special interest groups come into play. Your contribution to the NRA will help give them the money to fight the libs and the media which delivers it’s anti-gun tripe for free.

    The debate is also shifting with serious discussion of arming teachers. Mass shootings have educated the public to how ineffective law enforcement is at responding to incidents. We now have a couple of decades of experience proving the same old “solutions” i.e. AWB, magazine bans, etc, simply have not worked.

    So the gun debate will continue but it should not be taken for granted, as the O.P. and some forum members believe, it will be for more restrictions on firearms.
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    59,055
    Location:
    Alabama
    Same here. Life member of the NRA, and proud of it, and my guns never have and never will hurt anyone. The ultimate goal of the ones who would rule us is to disarm us first. they will take them all at once, or a little at a time, however they can get them. Throughout history rulers have used weapons control to control and abuse the populace, and and sometimes commit genocide on those people. It is no different today. Never back down, never give up, fight them until the end. Get out and vote in 2014, then 2016. We need to stop sending 90% of politicians back to DC. They have done a horrible job of running the country. They need firing. Vote for fresh blood who stand for gun ownership of all kinds.
     
  22. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,495
    Location:
    SW Florida
    I want to put forward a suggestion, other than arming the teachers.

    We have a surplus of wounded warriors. Many of them can't serve on the front lines anymore, but they are trained. I don't know of a single one who wouldn't stand between a person of ill intent and a child. I propose we let them continue their mission to support and defend this great country by protecting our future. Yes, I would even quit my current position if called upon to guard my 10 yo daughter. It's time for the sheppards to protect the sheep, cause the politicians are dropping the ball.

    Just my $.02
     
  23. JFtheGR8

    JFtheGR8 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Central Illinois
    It's a liberal world we're in folks and they'll do whatever it takes to push their agenda. I don't think we should give up anything but I don't believe we'll have a choice. We can offer suggestions that are practical without giving up our rights. I've suggested to my congressmen that all schools have a clinical psychologist on staff to recognize the "crazies" early on. In another post I mentioned some type of mandatory training excepting military and law enforcement of course. Tax breaks for safes sounds good too. We all know it's a lack of mental health institutions and lenient sentences for career criminals at the root of the problem. I think legislation will pass because we've lost the fence sitters though. Call it panic if you want and I'll say you're in denial.


    Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
     
  24. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    6,352
    Location:
    Virginia
    If you look at the legislative process as a form of negotiation, it's foolish to negotiate with yourself before you even sit down with the opposition. Stick to your maximalist position (which, in the case of gun owners, means no change, or even a rollback of existing laws), at least until the other side puts its cards on the table. I sure hope that the NRA doesn't start giving things away as early as its press conference this Friday.
     
  25. moewadle

    moewadle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    848
    This just my thoughts about the future of

    gun rights in America. I think, in the long run, not in my lifetime (I am 70 in a couple of days) that gun rights will slowly be eroded. I am not suggesting that any of you roll over but I think you/we are fighting a losing battle. The demographics of our country are slowly shifting and gun ownership is becoming less a part of our country...there might be more guns but they are in the hands of fewer people I believe. I think that, compromise or not compromise, the battle will be eventually lost. I could even see a vote some day by the people of the USA to rescind the 2nd amendment. Sounds impossible but I would not be surprised. Not in my lifetime but gradually, first it will be an AWB that is permanent...and then banning semi-auto guns, both long and short and then it will be banning any caliber over .22 , etc and pretty soon no one will be able to own guns. Yes, that is a dark prediction and I am glad I will not live to see it but it could very well happen.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice