Weak Hand Shooting: Wasteful Pursuits?

[karz10]

Well, I'm new to shooting, and I don't know the details about what should, or should not be, taught in a particular class or course, but as far as SD is concerned, the whole reason I bought a firearm is to defend myself, so it seems to me I should make a reasonable effort to train/practice for that situation, while considering potential obstacles...

While the avg citizen may not be able to, or want to, go overboard w/ excessive scenario training, it seems reasonable to me, personally, to train w/ off hand, especially off hand only, in the event something is wrong with your other hand or arm. I shoot at least a mag or two off hand every time I'm going to the range right now.

I'm not as concerned about the possibility of my strong hand getting injured during the altercation, although that could happen. My main concern was, as some have said, some unrelated incident or accident causing temporary, or God forbid permanent, damage to my strong hand, and shortly thereafter needing to use the weapon to defend myself or my family. I mean, wouldn't that be the worst thing in the world?

I mean, the possibility that a citizen not inentionally, or behaviorly, putting themselves in harm's way having to use their weapon in self defense is relatively remote anyway, right? Isn't the whole point to avoid having to use the thing? So to argue that the chances of having to use your off hand is too remote, doesn't make sense. It is not much more remote than having to use the weapon in a SD situation at all, in my opinion.

I would just hate that I purchased a firearm and trained with it, potentially for years, w/ the idea that I could defend myself if I had to, only to put all my eggs in one basket w/ my strong hand, somehow injure that hand in an unrelated incident, and then that be the time I need to use the weapon in self defense.

Speaking tactically for a minute, what if I had my strong arm in a sling and or cast, and it was obvious that I was injured, wouldn't that make me as a potentially easier mark? As a 6'1" 270# guy, maybe I don't look as vulnerable right now as I would wearing a sling? But anyone in a cast/sling may appear more vulnerable, no matter their stature or gender. That might just be the time some BG decides he's got enough of an edge.

You can play the 'what if' game to no end, I understand that. But to me, it seems to me to be a relatively inexpensive way to further prepare yourself to protect yourself later if the time comes. Certainly you can take it to whatever level you want, and what may seem reasonable for one, may seem unreasonable to another. Some may aspire to be equally proficient w/ either hand, while others may just want to be practically able to use their off hand at short range.

I prefer to at least be in the latter category, and at some point, somewhere in the middle. Right now, that means shooting about 30 rds off hand only, either 15 to body and 15 to head, or a mixture of distances, and about 30 rounds strong hand only in same fashion for comparison, and about 60-90 rounds w/ preferred 2 hand stance to various distances/locations, plus whatever the weekly IDPA practice entails. I figure this is a good way to get started, since as I mentioned, I'm new to shooting my first HG, although I'm sure it's subject to change.

JMHO.

Regards,

Karz

 

[the naked prophet]

Interestingly enough, whenever I shoot weak handed, I end up canting the gun at about 45 degrees. I know my left hand is much weaker, but sometimes I just can't pull the trigger otherwise. I am exercising my left trigger finger whenever I water my houseplants with a spray bottle

Just wondering if anyone else ends up canting the gun when firing weak handed?

 

[M2 Carbine]

Mad Magyar
That brought a big smile since my 21A is a jamomatic from the git-go, been sent to Md. twice: same results...Did you have a problem? Mine is going to the aisles of the next gun show....

I had two. Sold one to a friend. They are pretty reliable but are sensitive to ammo and somewhat the mags.
For a pocket gun I use Stingers which function fine.
Most HV is OK but standard velocity is a toss up.

Just wondering if anyone else ends up canting the gun when firing weak handed?

I tend to cant the gun to the right a little also when shooting left hand/left eye.
I can hold the gun vertical but sometimes I'll relax and allow the gun to lay to the right 5-10 degrees. Doesn't seem to make any difference as far as hits on target.

 

[Damien45]

Interestingly enough, whenever I shoot weak handed, I end up canting the gun at about 45 degrees. I know my left hand is much weaker, but sometimes I just can't pull the trigger otherwise. I am exercising my left trigger finger whenever I water my houseplants with a spray bottle

Just wondering if anyone else ends up canting the gun when firing weak handed?

I have when shooting off hand. I tend to do that when I am using my right eye. The odd thing is that I can use my left pretty well. Except sometimes I end up seeing two sets of sights at once. It's like both eyes wanting dominance and neither backing down. When that happens I usually just shut one for a couple rounds.

 

[1911 guy]

Cant when shooting off hand.

Completely normal. You'll also notice that recoil is more controllable with the off hand when the pistol is canted.

 

[Rexster]

My "strong" hand IS my weak hand!

Due to lingering injuries, my once-stronger right hand is now my weak hand. Sometimes I wear a brace on the right wrist, which makes firing an autoloader difficult, unless the left hand is used instead. On occasion, I wear this brace while working the streets as an LEO. Another thing: Hits to the gun hand/arm DO happen. Look at a detailed account of the FBI incident in South Florida in the 1980's. A co-worker/friend of mine took a horrendous hit to his forearm during a local shootout. Then, there is practicality; does anyone insist no LEO will switch hands to adapt to conditions, such as aiming around cover, or approaching corners? Well, I do, regularly. Moreover, shooting with both hands not only allows one hand to rest while the other shoots, during long days of shooting, but it doubles the FUN! Now, I am functionally ambidextrous, to the point of shooting certain handguns better with the left hand, and others better with the right. (I always did delicate tasks better as a lefty, and more athletic stuff better as a rightie.)

 

[Diamondback6]

Guys, that cant is called "McMillan tilt", generally used in weak-hand or cross-dominant situations. A Marine pistol competitor was its creator.

And I use a slight cant even strong-hand, as it seems to bring my arm and wrist bones into alignment for a better recoil-resisting lockup. 45 degrees is about the max tilt for it to do any good.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Do you have a reference for the "McMillan tilt"?

 

[Diamondback6]

DNS, the McMillan rotation is named after Bill McMillan, and my source is Ayoob, Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 5th edition.

Gimme a day or two, and I'll see if I can find my copy and come up with a page citation.

General rule, though, is you want the rotate to be between 15-45 degrees, any more than that and you actually weaken the hold.

 

[Diamondback6]

Page 171, heading: "Turning the Gun".

 

[mek42]

I worked with a guy who used to be a small arms instructor for the air force. He's the one who turned me on to weak hand pistol drill. I go so far as to reload at least once during each time I practice with my weak hand - the old magazine is dropped out of the pistol (I do make an effort to drop it onto the wood bench instead of the ground - more later) the pistol placed between my knees, new mag retrieved and loaded and then the pistol cocked using my knees to hold the slide. I still need practice with this last step. The entirety of my weak hand drill from draw to placing the safe weapon down on the bench after done shooting is done without any use of my strong hand.

He told me that the rationale for this sort of training came about due to a famous gunfight where several FBI agents were killed (I don't recall the 'name' of said gunfight) - the subsequent investigation showed that the agents had wasted time by policing brass and putting the spent brass in their pockets - like they were trained to do in the range. He taught his students to just drop the magazines wherever - it's cheaper for the Air Force to buy new magazines than to retrain personnel.

As far as whether this pursuit is a waste of time, you are welcome to look at my post in the weak hand challenge thread, post #20, and see for yourself. I fired at 50' indoors using factory 230 grain hardball for the weak hand shooting. The strong hand shooting placed there for comparison was using a light recoil handload (200 gr cast SWC over 5.0 gr Win231). Maybe I should shoot 'weak' hand at bullseye league. Besides, the look on the LEO's face who is a shooter at my club upon seeing my weak hand target, "You're a civilian, right? Why the $%^& are you doing that? Oh, wow, that's good," was well worth the $10 or $20 I've spent on ammunition for weak hand training.

I agree with the people who advocate weak hand training for self defense. If you are going to train at all (given the statistically low likelihood of needing to use such training - for the non-sworn CCW), why not train for the possibility of being injured in the strong hand immediately prior to needing the weapon? Not just shot in the arm, it might be a knife wound or maybe you just slipped and fell earlier in the day. They say you never need a pistol unless you really need a pistol - perhaps knowing you're good to go even if you absolutely desperately need to fire your pistol with your weak hand will bring peace of mind if nothing else.

 

[Mad Magyar]

I fired at 50' indoors using factory 230 grain hardball for the weak hand shooting.

With due respect to your opinion and practice regimen, I can't think of anything more wasteful: time & ammo. Your distance is completely unrealistic to a civilian shootout scenario. A carbine would serve you better.
I get the impression you are more trained as a "bulls-eye" shooter in contrast to close, combative pistolcraft....
Again, nothing wrong with shooting a few rds with the off-hand for familiarity; but beyond that I stand by my premise....

 

[obxned]

While I doubt weak-hand shooting is a skill I will ever be called upon to use, it is one well worth the effort to learn.

I have fire insurance, but don't expect to use it either.

 

[mek42]

I fully understand that the vast majority of defensive handgun situations occur at distances far closer than 50'. I'll also freely admit that my training to date (I've only been shooting handguns for about a year and a half) is more along the lines of bullseye technique than more traditional defensive technique.

I am 6' tall, and my local indoor range is only about 6'2" to the ceiling from between the bench line at 50' and the targets and the cable systems for the target retrieval systems hangs under this ceiling. It is club policy that targets may be fired upon only when placed as far back as they will traverse - to practice closer requires one to enter the short ceilinged area which is less than comfortable.

So, 50' is the range that I can comfortably practice at the most. And while I know that bullseye training is not the same as defensive training I'd like to think that being able to consistently maintain less than 6" groups at 50' will at least partially offset the stress and excitement induced deviations to shot placement at shorter ranges in an actual situation that I hope never arises. At any rate, my own personal code dictates that if I cannot maintain such a grouping at 50' then I do not have sufficient marksmanship skills with that particular weapon for carrying purposes. I do plan to partake in my club's defensive league next year now that my basic marksmanship skills have improved to where they are now.

As far as my time and ammunition being wasted I must respectfully disagree. No amount of money can buy the pride and satisfaction that I felt when I wheeled that weak handed target back. As far as time spent, the entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.

 

[Trebor]

He told me that the rationale for this sort of training came about due to a famous gunfight where several FBI agents were killed (I don't recall the 'name' of said gunfight) - the subsequent investigation showed that the agents had wasted time by policing brass and putting the spent brass in their pockets - like they were trained to do in the range.

That sounds like the Newhall shooting in the 1970's where four California Highwap Patrol officers were killed in a shootout following a traffic stop. "Gunfight lore" has long maintained that at least one officer was found with spent brass in either his hand or his pocket. The specifics vary depending on who is telling the story. This is used as an example of "You'll train as you fight" as the officer or officer retained the brass because that is what they were told to do at the range. I do not personally know if any of the officers were really found with brass in their hands or pockets, but this is the shooting associated with that idea.

The other shootout your instructor was thinking of was the "FBI Miami shootout" in 1986. In that case two bad guys shot it out with 7 (8?) FBI agents after a bungled felony traffic stop. Two of the FBI agents were killed by one of the bad guys who was armed with a Ruger Mini-14. This is a very widely researched and talked about gunfight and I've never seen any reference to any of the agents retaining empty brass or empty magazines. Other mistakes were made, but not that one.