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Weapon mounted lights....

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by mokin, May 20, 2020.

  1. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I have a light on my carry gun. I also carry a second handheld light where I don’t have to point my weapon at the object in question if it doesn’t need to have a gun pointed at it.

    EC3023D0-02A4-433E-86F8-9F2F02F53310.jpeg

    Pretty easy. It doesn’t need to be rocket science.

    I’ve taken a few pistol classes (Gunsite and TacPro with a Bill Davison) that have somewhat impressed upon me the ability to be able to see what I’m looking at in darkness, pointing a pistol and potentially shooting at and the ability to see what I’m shooting.

    Once the shooting has started I don’t necessarily want to be holding onto a secondary piece of equipment when both hands can be on the pistol.

    I’d rather have a rifle if I can, but I don’t have little little kids either. The semi-auto rifles and a couple of the shotguns all have lights too.
     
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  2. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    Context is everything. In my previous post I said I didnt see a use for a WML outside of LEO/Military.

    As a civilian the only situation a WML makes any sense and LEGAL purpose is inside your home. The only scenario in which this would further make any sense is if you were "clearing" your home, which just about every proffesional SD advocate on the the planet advocates against, wisely so.

    So aside from clearing your own home, which you shouldn't be doing in the first place for a variety of reasons, I dont see the point.

    Out in public the scenario just worsens because you're talking about drawing and pointing or using blips of light from a gun to identify possible threats. One has to keep in mind the justification of just drawing their weapon in the first place.

    Folks have mentioned training and I agree that's worthwhile but for most hand held light training would be more worthwhile than WML.

    There is a place for WML's but I dont think civilian use is one of them.


    But as I said it's still a free country. I just dont think enough folks have a grasp on the legal ramifications of their possible actions.
     
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  3. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    Agreed.

    My house, and eyes, are accustomed to the dark...every led, ups, smoke detector, light switch...produces light....

    That said, the kid’s room is upstairs, and at the opposite end of the house...no, I have no plans on clearing a house, but if I think the kid is at risk...when seconds count, the police are minutes away....
     
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  4. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    I'm no expert but I think a lot of folks dont take simple things like this into mind when buying a house.

    If your master is on the first floor and the kids are on the second then a suitable hold up position on the first floor makes sense. Even then, low lights left on in the house would suffice.

    Now if you have rappelling SO (special ops) conveying on your second floor then you have more issues than I can address. ;)
     
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  5. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    @Good Ol' Boy agree...

    situation and circumstance really define what all of us are saying....there is no perfect answer....
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    That could be a thread all it’s own. It would make a good thread.
     
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  7. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    While there may not be a "perfect answer" theres certainly a needed legal justification for drawing a weapon in home or out in public.

    WML or not that doesnt change.

    Something for all of us to keep in mind.
     
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  8. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    Indeed.
     
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  9. MCFLYFYTER

    MCFLYFYTER Member

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    As far as a weaplight is concerned, there really is a perfect answer. Just like carrying a gun, it's better to have and not need...
     
  10. MCFLYFYTER

    MCFLYFYTER Member

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    I think a better thread would be the usefulness of night sights. I jumped on that train at the beginning, and quickly realized they offered zero usefulness unless you are shooting at anything that appears to move in the dark. Who cares if you can e r sights while you hide in the closet? Then again, that is where a weapon light excels. Target is lit up and easily visible, and your sights are dark as night and easily visible.
     
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  11. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    Not my first house, but the first built...some good, some mistakes....one mistake, the kid should have been on the first floor...more about A/C, proximity, etc.

    One good...the master closet is where everyone is to collapse to if something bad occurs. A solid (should have specified exterior...another mistake) door, land line, dead bolt, lock box for various items...You have to go to the center of the house through the master bedroom and bath...

    Nothing material in the house is worth a wound or death - just take it. Try to enter the closet, you are after more than trinkets....
     
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  12. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    My first (second, third...) read took me to Significant Other (SO),....that would be a ruckus making possum and a bobcat together in burlap sack sound like Mozart.... :what:
     
  13. mokin

    mokin Member

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    I think we are getting more to where I was asking. Maybe I'm paranoid but I do think about avenues of approach/escape in a house. I am also cognizant of the importance of night sights on a firearm. Two of my handguns and one rifle have them. I figure a lot of this has to do with situational awareness. I doubt toolset will fix mindset.
     
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  14. mokin

    mokin Member

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    I could've lived happily ever after without that mental image.
     
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  15. MCFLYFYTER

    MCFLYFYTER Member

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    Would you mind sharing how you have found night sights to be useful?
     
  16. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    The sad fact, you have to think like a bad person to layer your defense. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot defend it. Be careful...you cannot be be perfectly safe and perfectly free.
     
  17. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I have always found that if there was enough light to identify the target I didn’t need the tritium dots.

    One thing we did notice when our small (26 officers) dept transitioned to autos with night sights from revolvers, daylight qual scores went up. The firearms instructor credited the night sights being more visible and the officers concentrating more on the front sight.

    I remember reading an article in American Handgunner when night sights first became available. The author who was touting them spoke of the “comforting glow” on his night stand, so I guess they are useful to locate your pistol in the dark......
     
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  18. MCFLYFYTER

    MCFLYFYTER Member

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    I have 2 sets of trijicon HD's, and the bright orange dot probably makes front sight acquisition a little quicker, but I will never pay for nigh sight again. My experience has been the same as yours.
     
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  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's backwards.

    I have no idea about what the rest of your post is supposed to mean.
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Thus has been in one of our Sticky threads for a number of years:

    "Considerations Regarding Flashlights on Guns

    "Many people equip their firearms with flashlights for use indoors at night. Those lights should be used only as a means of finally confirming that the person illuminated is in fact a threat to the actor, and as an aiming aid.

    "Using a flashlight that is attached to a firearm to search a room or an area may result in pointing the firearm at someone at whom one should not point a gun. That is not only dangerous, it can result in accusations or charges of various kinds. For other reasons, it is rarely prudent to try to find and engage an intruder. Once family members have been made safe, it is a far better strategy to let the threat come to the defender.

    "Only a separate hand-held flashlight should be used for searching inside a house or in a populated area at night."
    Three comments are in order:

    1. In most jurisdictions, a defender would not be assuming the same legal risks presenting a firearm within his occupied residence, or within other "highly defensible property", as in the out-of-doors. The physical risks, however, still exist.
    2. The comment on "finally confirming...threat to the actor" applies indoors. In the-out-of-doors, presenting a firearm absent a basis for a reasonable belief that the immediate use of deadly force would be justified (in a handful of states, the threshold is physical force) is a crime.
    3. It is not necessary to actually point a firearm directly at someone to commit a serious crime.
    On that last item, some well-known instructors do teach using the "splash" from a weapon-mounted light. That is to reduce the risk of inadvertently injuring someone through an unintentional discharge. it would not relieve one of assault charges. But for incidents occurring within an occupied home, assault charges are usually very low on the list of concerns.
     
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  21. Browning

    Browning Member

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    How else would a reasonable person use it?

    That’s literally the only time that you would end up using it.
     
  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, indoors, in one's occupied domicile.

    Outdoors, the first part of the sentence does not apply.
     
  23. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    I am a fan of Rangemaster Tom Givens. Here is his take on weapon mounted lights: https://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-02_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf

    He pretty much has the opinion that they are mainly for LEO's and Military, and he has some good ideas on how to mitigate needing a light at home.

    That said, I appreciate his insight, but I still have a WML on several of my firearms. I have gone through Gunsite classes where I had to "clear a house" in the dark, and only had a handheld light at that time. I have since used the techniques I learned to practice in my own home, and found the spill of a good light on a pistol will allow me to clear a house at the "low ready" position and have plenty of light to see in an entire room. Also, I live in a development where the houses are fairly spread apart and no streetlights.

    Also, and as an example, last night, I got a call around 2100 from a friend who lives near me on a 20 acre place on a dark road and is out of town for the weekend. The person feeding his animals called him and said she didn't see his pasture dog in the field (he has a Great Pyrenees that lives with his goats) and he asked me to check on him. He asked me to check on the critters because we've had several reports of cougars in the area (4 legged). This happens a lot around here in the Spring when lots of fawns are running around. I went out to his place and chose to carry my Glock 17 with the Surefire 300 Ultra on it, as I wanted maximum light in a dark place. I also carried an 800 lumen Streamlight. Happily, the Glock stayed in the holster, and the flashlight worked for the task. But had a threat happened, I wanted a high lumen WML on my firearm.

    So, as always, more than one answer. IMHO, and YMMV

    ETA: I am in no way trying to refute the article I posted or in any way suggesting I know more the author. His reputation is exceptional in my opinion and I value his information. And the article I posted was from 2017, so I am not 100% sure if this article has been superseded by a newer one. Just to be clear...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Houses spread apart...no streetlights....20 acres on a dark road....

    That's very different from where I am and what I do, and it would certainly call for different solutions.

    I'll bet that Tom Givens would agree.
     
  25. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    He very well may. One thing I really appreciate about his writings, and I confess I have not read every newsletter or article he's published, is that he is NOT stuck in old dogma, and he evolves and adapts as needed. I feel this is the mark of a true student of his craft.

    I was in no way trying to misconstrue anything he wrote. My underlying point was really that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat...

    Sorry for any confusion on my part.
     
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