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Weapons in Foster Homes

Discussion in 'Legal' started by wky46, Dec 21, 2008.

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  1. wky46

    wky46 Member

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    Considering opening my home to foster children. Also concidering a CCDW permit.
    When perusing my statepolice website for CCDW I came across this-

    'Restrictions on Carry by Qualified License Holders'
    "A concealed deadly weapon SHALL NOT be carried in the following places:
    ....... or any certified family child care home."

    I keep a handgun in my glove box (legal) and I'm concidering CC because my job requires that I occasionaly travel across states that have reciprocal laws and of course need to be legal.

    Anyone see any ambiguity in the phrasing that would keep me from obtaining a permit?
     
  2. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    I'm thinking it means homes for mentally disabled children, not your own home.
     
  3. kd7nqb

    kd7nqb Member

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    This case just recently came up in Oregon in a little different flavor but I am guessing your in a different state so I dont know how much I can help without knowing where you live.

    By the way thanks for being a foster parent, your doing good work.
     
  4. Ron James

    Ron James Member

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    State laws differ, here in Arizona my house is inspected every two years. It also depends on the inspectors. Some have common sense. some don't. One inspector a few years back stated my black powder firearms on the wall were OK. that a child wasn't likely to take one down and load it. Another inspector stated that they ere still firearms and had to have a trigger lock { think about that, on a Hawken!} The last one said all firearms had to be secured and with a cable lock. Of course the ammo had to be separate. I just smile , say yes and after they leave go my merry way. The fire arm I have in my bed room is a .45, no child is going to rack the slide, it's also in a little safe. Of course my firearms are secure. except the ones I have on the wall, after the inspector leaves they go back on the wall. It's odd. I also have a knife collection in unlocked display cabinet in my office, very wicked and sharp knives, no one has ever said a word about them. To protect yourself you have to make sure your home is safe but you also have to understand that some of these government inspectors have no common sense at all. You have to check the state laws in your state. I have a CCW, I don't walk around the house armed, but I do carry when I'm out and about and no one has ever asked me about it. They don't ask, I don't tell .Also it's a visual inspection, not a house search. The last one only was concerned about guns and prescription med. being secure. But be aware, you will fall in love with these kids and cry when they leave. My wife and I adopted 3 of them. We've been foster parents for over 20 years with no regrets
     
  5. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Oddly enough, Ron, a few years back my wife and I were considering fostering here in AZ, and the first person who came out to do a hiome inspection FREAKED when i came out in uniform to go to work, telling her we could NOT have ANY assmebled firearms in the home if we were going to foster, and my duty sidearm would have to be secured in SOMEONE ELSES'S home! Needless to say, we declined thier services, and my wife got this woman to sputter like a busted engine, when she asked them, if we were to protect the child while in our custody, how could we if they insisted we get rid of the best method of protection from invasion/burglars/etc?
     
  6. divemedic

    divemedic Member

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    That is funny, since accidental firearm discharge only kills 75 children under the age of 15. Firearm suicide kills 84 children under the age of 15, and homicide by firearm is 230, firearm death with unknown intent: 15.

    That means that there are 404 children under the age of 15 are killed by firearms each year. Compare that to:

    Motor vehicle accidents: 2,210
    Drowning: 810

    It would be more effective to tell you that you can have a bathtub, buckets, a pool, or a car than to tell you that you cannot have a gun.

    Disclosure: This is according to the CDC figures, Number of deaths from 113 selected causes by age: United States, 2005. Figures used are for children, birth to 15 years of age. The next higher age category was age 15 to 24, which would have caused me to use the figures for more adults than children. Unlike the Brady Campaign, I am actually trying for accuracy.
     
  7. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Yes, Divemedic, but LIEberals have swimming pools and Lexus cars they'd hate to give up. Banning things to feel good only works if you ban things OTHER people have...and YOU don't have to lose.
     
  8. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    How is this term defined in your state statute? Foster care, day care, both?

    As has been said, every state is different and you will run into many different
    caseworkers and foster care/daycare license inspectors (sometimes they
    are one and the same). In rural areas and non-gun-hysterical-phobic states
    they will just ask if you have a gun safe and/or other ways to secure your
    firearm(s) when not in use. If the child welfare agency has some administrative
    rules addressing firearms in how they are to license a home, just ask to see
    these in advance. If you run into a beaurocrat who violates this, go up one
    level. Many states are in desparate need of good foster homes.

    There are some things you need to consider:

    I knew a foster kid years back who absolutely loved going hunting with his
    foster dad. He really enjoyed this. He never had a problem in the home.
    Now on the flipside, there are foster kids with "histories" who could jiggle
    apart the typical gym locker gun safe in under five minutes, have your
    favorite glock in their waistband next to their cellphone, and set themselves
    up as the drug kingpin on your block within 24 hrs after arriving on your
    doorstep. Then there's the emotionally disturbed kid who upon reflecting
    how he was "abandoned" (actually severely abused or neglected) by his
    family wakes up one day (or in the middle of the night at 2am) and just
    says "F it". Reminds me of the time it was reported to me by this little old
    lady who woke up one night with a knife at her throat. She had a good
    conversation with him and he went back to bed. But, that could've gone
    either way.

    Well, you're beginning to get where I'm going with this. There's a lot to think
    about other than just the legalities of the CCW and the foster care license.
    That said, it might be the most rewarding thing you will ever do.
     
  9. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    That was the first thing that came to my mind.
     
  10. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    They came to my mind due to actual cases. And, no, I can't legally cite
    locations, dates, etc.
     
  11. Mrs. Armoredman

    Mrs. Armoredman Member

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    WKY46 and Ron James,

    Yes the laws in states are different. We wanted to foster kids in our home. The state made it so hard on the both of us we told them to cancel our application. I will not take apart my gun so it's unuseable if a bad guy breaks in. I spoke with the ladys bosses and told them point blank. I am not going to take apart my firearm and allow someone to break into my home and be unable to protect my son or the foster child. I will not commit a felony just because of the dumb laws. We don't know if anyone will break in but we do need to be prepared. I do have a CCW permit but it didn't matter to them at all. They kept telling me keep your gun in someone elses house. That was the stupidest think I ever heard. After I said what I needed to say they didn't blame me for how I felt. I can't protect myself or any child from a armed bad guy with a baseball bat or a glass vase. I told them off good. It felt so good defending my rights as a 2nd ammendment supporter.

    The advice me and armoredman gave you is what we went through. It is no picnic. I refuse to go without my gun anywhere. I wish you the best of luck.
     
  12. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I think you were up against a Child Protective Service (CPS) regulation rather then an Arizona statute, but the net effect is the same. CPS is perhaps the most useless agency within Arizona's government, and in my experience they are both anti-gun and incompetent. I am sorry that you had to do what you had too do, but you were right in doing it.

    Unfortunately its the kids that suffer. :fire:
     
  13. DaveBeal

    DaveBeal Member

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    I have to agree with the powers-that-be on this one. A foster child isn't like your own child that you've raised from birth. You don't have complete knowledge about the foster child's background, state of mind, emotional stability and attitude toward guns. In this case, the possibility of accessible firearms seems a significant risk.
     
  14. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    I think that the CHL law is not an issue for you, but you will have bigger (policy, not legal) issues with the foster/adoptive services in general.

    That sounds fine when you write it. It's another 'common sense' approach - make sure that foster kids can't come into unsupervised contact with functional and loaded firearms. But like all 'common sense' approaches, it tends to break down in practice.

    Who does the home survey? Somebody who knows nothing about firearms or how to secure them.

    Who reviews the application? Somebody who knows nothing about firearms or how to secure them.

    The problem is that the people that set themselves up to be 'the powers that be' are not adequately schooled to adjudicate half of the issues they're asked to face. So they do the best they can with what they know (which is usually the touchy-feely side of the business) and cover their keisters on the rest by following their intepretation of a rulebook. It winds up being arbitrary, capricious, and frankly degrading to the prospective foster parents.

    My own experience has been that, in the end, most foster and adoptive agencies simply impose a blanket rule that effectively disallows the presence of firearms in the house. And I will not do that.

    So, sadly, my wife and I are not adoptive or foster parents despite being emotionally and financially capable and willing to be foster/adoptive parents.
     
  15. wky46

    wky46 Member

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    Thanks all.
    I have several relatives (Kentucky) that foster and each family hunts and obviously have firearms in the home. Not sure if any handguns are in any of the ones I know and I doubt any are CC .
    I was told by the state that they simply demand that firearms be locked in a safe, locked guncabinet, etc. In other words, the only distinction how a foster home differs from the general public is that the foster home must keep things put up and locked. Makes sense and I'm not overly concerned about that. I did not mention CCDW.

    It just seems that last statement could be construed by some as saying that foster homes are ineligable to obtain the permit. But if one reads it literally it simply states that I cannot conceal in my home nor any other foster home.

    I guess I'm just wondering if I should expect any surprises when I do apply for my permit. Hopefully since my state still (so far and kinda) has a commonsense approach to gun ownership I shouldn't be too concerned but one never knows.
    Kentucky seems to love emulating "progressive" states....... decades later!

    My wife and I have recently been licensed to foster medically fragile children and will be accepting children soon. However since we're this far into and I'm denied a permit I guess I'll still foster but it seems that if they WERE to deny me that right based on the CCDW wording it would seem that I'd certainly be able to contest that.

    .........

    Phil
     
  16. Mrs. Armoredman

    Mrs. Armoredman Member

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    wky46,

    You and your wife have big hearts. I applaud you and your wife for taking in children that have medical needs. That is a big challenge right there.

    As for a permit I don't know the laws in your state. I hope they don't deny you. Tip of the hat to you and your wife. Bless you both for what you both are doing.

    Happy Holidays to both of you and everyone here at THR.
     
  17. franconialocal

    franconialocal Member

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    New Hampshire

    Not sure about where you are, but here's New Hampshire's law regarding storage of firearms.......as far as foster homes are concerned, I'm not really sure!

    TITLE LXII
    CRIMINAL CODE
    CHAPTER 650-C
    NEGLIGENT STORAGE OF FIREARMS
    Section 650-C:1
    650-C:1 Negligent Storage of Firearms. –
    I. Nothing in this section shall be construed to reduce or limit any existing right to purchase and own firearms or ammunition, or both, or to provide authority to any state or local agency to infringe upon the privacy of any family, home or business except by lawful warrant.
    II. As used in this section, "child,'' "juvenile'' or "youth'' shall mean any person under 16 years of age.
    III. Any person who stores or leaves on premises under that person's control a loaded firearm, and who knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child's parent or guardian, is guilty of a violation if a child gains access to a firearm and:
    (a) The firearm is used in a reckless or threatening manner;
    (b) The firearm is used during the commission of any misdemeanor or felony; or
    (c) The firearm is negligently or recklessly discharged.
    IV. Any person who violates paragraph III shall be fined not more than $1,000.
    V. This section shall not apply whenever any of the following occurs:
    (a) The child has completed firearm safety instructions by a certified firearms safety instructor or has successfully completed a certified hunter safety course.
    (b) The firearm is kept secured in a locked box, gun safe, or other secure locked space, or in a location which a reasonable person would believe to be secure, or is secured with a trigger lock or similar device that prevents the firearm from discharging.
    (c) The firearm is carried on the person or within such a close proximity thereto so that the individual can readily retrieve and use the firearm as if carried on the person.
    (d) The child obtains or obtains and discharges the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person.
    (e) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on any premises which are under such person's custody or control has no reasonable expectation, based on objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to be present on the premises.
    (f) The child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry of any premises by any person or an illegal taking of the firearm from the premises of the owner without permission of the owner.
    VI. A parent or guardian of a child who is injured or who dies of an accidental shooting shall be prosecuted under this section only in those instances in which the parent or guardian behaved in a grossly negligent manner.
    VII. Licensees shall conspicuously post at each purchase counter the following warning in bold type not less than one inch in height: "IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE OWNER OF A FIREARM SEEK FIREARM SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS FROM A CERTIFIED FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR AND KEEP FIREARMS SECURED FROM UNAUTHORIZED USE.'' A licensee failing to display this warning to the purchaser of a firearm shall be guilty of a violation.
    Source. 2000, 267:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2001.
     
  18. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    I found an interesting article on the subject (in PDF form) here http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/socwork/nrcfcpp/downloads/policy-issues/Firearms_in_Foster_Homes.pdf


    The wife and I had considered fostering ... after reading about the rules in Colorado it looks like we'll be taking a pass on that too :(


    So does this kind of crap apply if you adopt? Or once you've adopted a kid does the government butt out as much as they would for your own natural born children?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  19. Big Mike

    Big Mike Member

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    Was a certified foster parent in Oregon. Unless the laws/regs have changed in two years, you can have weapons, but they had to be secured. Also, you could not carry concealed (with a permit/lawfully) with a foster child in your car though.
     
  20. wky46

    wky46 Member

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    Big Mike- I didn't think about the car aspect. Thanks.

    ............

    Phil
     
  21. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Check with an attorney or adoption agency, but I believe that if you adopt a child the kid is yours in the same respect that a natural born one would be. In the case of a foster child the state retains custody of that child.

    But to adopt you have to jump through some hoops, and the same left-wing, warm & fuzzy (between the ears) social workers may refuse to certify you as qualified.

    Also look into adopting through an out-of-state agency if you encounter flack in the state where you reside.
     
  22. subknave

    subknave Member

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    " Any weapons such as firearms, air rifles, bows, hunting knives or hunting sling shots shall be unstrung and unloaded at all times "


    How do I unload my hunting knife? Please post directions.

    :)
     
  23. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    I have a folding knife with a lock built into the handle. :)
     
  24. Kim

    Kim Member

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    You better think twice before becoming a Foster parent. I have been told by some of my patients who are foster parents (Arkansas) that firearms are NOT allowed in the home. You will have to go have a physical exam. They will check your home out. You will have locks on cabinets and such things. It is up to you but the .gov will be in your home.
     
  25. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Well this throws another log on the fire that is my hatred of all things government. :mad:
     
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