Weapons retention for CCW?

Elkins45

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Cops wear security holsters but regular folks tent to carry in open top IWB holsters. Have you ever considered what you would do if someone happened to grab for your weapon either during a physical altercation or because they accidentally caught a glimpse of it? For years I carried a folding knife on my off side, and a couple of years ago I replaced it with a double-edge OTF auto. It was pointed out to me by a smart person that the process of retrieving, opening and obtaining a fighting grip while simultaneously fighting to retain your gun in the holster might be quite difficult.

This revelation has led me to reconsider the best tool for weapon retention. Part of me thinks a push knife carried left side IWB is a good solution because you grip, draw and deploy it in the same hand position. Another thought was to abandon the knife altogether and just carry a P32 or LCP in a left hand IWB holster. Having a second gun seems like a good way to keep someone from grabbing your first gun.

Thoughts?
 
I've trained on the assumption that a gun grab is likely to be instantaneous and with little-to-no warning. In force-on-force, I haven't seen anything effective other than jamming the gun hand down on top of the holstered gun - with or without the attacker's hand underneath - and striking with the off hand (or elbow, or knee, or whatever you've got.) Having both the time and the manual dexterity to retrieve and effectively wield any sort of weapon with the off hand is not, again in my experience, remotely realistic - though I personally am especially crummy with my off hand.

<edit> A thing to bear in mind is that there is a very good possibility that your attacker will be striking you with his off hand while struggling over the gun. Having both of your own hands fishing around in your trousers while this is going on could well lead to a poor outcome...
 
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No training myself, so take this for what it is worth. An offside weapon could be used to drive off a gun grab while the primary hand forces the pistol into the holster to prevent its removal. For such a close-in scenario a small fixed blade might be best. keep it simple and fast.
 
Have you considered using level 2 retention holsters and training with them? It's not a panacea, but introduces a deterrent. It's also prudent to be aware of the environment.

In a force-on-force scenario, @.38 Special alludes to striking offenders with the off-hand while jamming the strong hand on the firearm to keep it holstered, which is what my personal response will be.
 
Practice the Israeli draw technique? Maybe if your weapon is lost in a grab, you gain a few more seconds ..? Just thinking out loud.
But good topic food for thought. Thanks.
 
Keep people you are interacting with on your off side. Learn the interview stance. When in a crowd keep your strong side arm against your weapon. I used to keep my elbow on it when working in uniform in a crowd.

In the event someone tries to grab it come down hard with your strong hand and you can either pin their hand against your weapon or if you have the right training you can grab their wrist and take them to the ground with an arm bar take down.

Accessing a second weapon while "dancing" with someone who has a hand on your weapon looks really cool on video but like everything else HTH requires training to pull off.
 
Kabar TDI or a Clinch Pick may be worth looking into to help them let go of your firearm.

I try to keep my head on a swivel and think the odds of someone going for your weapon is rather low. Not 0, but low. Plus, as I get older, I can only worry about so many things. Not saying you're wrong but not high on my list of concerns after carrying for 30+ years.
 
Accessing a second weapon while "dancing" with someone who has a hand on your weapon looks really cool on video but like everything else HTH requires training to pull off.
That's what makes a push knife seem like an appealing option. Just grab and start stabbing, no shifting grip or fine motor skills needed. Maybe not the first option, but if you have your right hand holding the weapon down you would only need to get your left free for a second to deploy it. It’s been decades since I’ve been in any kind of physical altercation so this may be pure fantasy, but it’s better to have it and not need it…
 
The best weapon retention tool is a fixed blade knife in your other hand. The reason you don't want a folder is that if you are in a weapon retention situation the grip you need to take on a folder in order to open it is very compromised and it can easily be knocked or jostled from your hand.

I tell everyone who will listen that if you carry a gun you need the means to keep it out of someone else's hands. Unless you have a blade or have grappling skills I'm taking your gun if we get to touching distance and it won't even be hard.

It's so important to not be one dimensional with your self defense. Many people today have a background in high school wrestling or have spent a few months in a jujitsu gym as it's the fastest growing sport in the US and the bad guys do it too. You need to be able to counter that if need be.

I train not only with firearms but I also train extensively in MMA which incorporates alot of boxing, wrestling, judo and jujitsu, as well as improvised weapons and bladed weapons and transitioning from lethal to non lethal as needed.
 
OP, good job choosing the concealed path to packing heat as opposed to open carry. Keep it as such and you will be fine.
 
Weapon retention? Back to basics... Your absolute best bet first, before the party starts... is distance from anyone that might be an opponent, period. Once you're carrying a sidearm -it's as much of a danger to you as it is to someone that intends to attack... Our trainers could snatch a service weapon from the best retention holsters around years ago, face to face or from the rear... in training situations (I left police work in 1995) , maybe there's some new gear I'm not aware of but it's still on you to protect that weapon - and do your best not to get smoked with your own gun. If you must approach a possible opponent, or they approach you... turn your weak side (non weapon side towards them -the "interview stance" ) while at the same time moving your weapon hand to your sidearm - not to draw it, but to protect it while at the same time allowing you to draw it if needed... Even when not armed that's a standard maneuver for me. It puts that possible opponent on notice that not only you may be armed -but you're in a position to draw and defend yourself if needed. The fact that your "weapon side" is not visible to an opponent - nor your weapon hand... can allow you to bluff very effectively when you're not armed at all (and I've actually used that technique several times over the years since I've never carried a firearm from the day I retired from police work to the present...).

None of what I've described involves the martial arts - but the next part would be basic stuff for any martial artist - before striking, grappling, using a second weapon, etc. is simple footwork. Most of us even old guys like me have a bit of dancing in us - use your feet to keep the needed distance, and maneuver away from an assailant - aided by a simple push with your weak hand to keep the needed distance to prepare to fight or prepare to draw your weapon. Not much more to say except that, if carrying a sidearm - you really don't want to engage in a fist fight or a wrestling match - particularly with a younger more fit individual -who really really intends harm... Your best defense is to back off, break away, run if you must. It will at least provide the distance needed to make that shoot or no shoot decision if things get ugly.

Now for the next level.. you're facing more than one possible assailant... All of the above applies but with the added danger that you must not allow one of them to move to your side or even worse move to a position behind you. That's a very bad situation indeed since you can't defend what you can't see and more than one opponent makes it very likely that you'll lose any physical struggle if things get ugly... Here's a true story.. One of our officers, a very fit confident guy, more than capable in any fight, approached two young men in front of a closed store that had a silent alarm. Instead of keeping his distance until a back-up could arrive he approached and was talking with one of them and allowed the second guy to ease to his side. He never saw the punch coming and was out cold on the ground allowing the two to remove his sidearm from it's holster and prepare to execute him as he lay helpless... The only thing that saved him was an elderly couple walking their dog who approached and scared them off (still holding onto his gun - which we never recovered... ). Those two young men got away and we later found the breach in that store where they'd just done a burglary... I try to avoid war stories - but this type of encounter could happen to any armed citizen. A simple encounter might have some serious stuff going on - that you have no knowledge of and that might motivate an attack when you least expect it. Those basic tactics that I've just described might save you - without the "John Wayne" fight for your life... In my era a significant number of cops killed on the job - were killed with their own weapons in one encounter or another. This should be a concern for every armed citizen since the gun you carry might be your greatest danger...
 
Lots of good suggestions there but it someone is close enough to grab my gun they're close enough to do alot of things. I want both my hands up in front of me to fend off a punch. A couple of undefended haymakers and they'll just take your gun off your unconscious body and now they know you have one because you just showed them that you have one and where it is by touching it.
 
How for they know that you're carrying and where on your body?
Often it's really not that difficult to spot concealed weapons. People tend to touch them alot to reassure themselves that it's still concealed or they carry something poorly and it prints. These people are often hypervigilant which can be a clue also that they might be carrying. A skilled observer will start by watching people's demeanor and the way they carry themselves first and then scan for firearms after identifying a likely person.

A more likely scenario for weapons retention for a concealed carrier vs open carry is that you end up in a physical fight first. During the course of that fight the aggressor finds out you have a gun. It can happen if you try to draw, the bad guy feels it, or your cover garment comes up.
 
To each his own, but for me....one gun is a big enough pita. I certainly don't want two ccw's.
I do, however, carry a large OTF knife on my weak side. FWIW
I'm warming to the idea of replacing my OTF with some sort of fixed blade because it reduces the number of motions you have to do in order to retrieve and deploy it.
 
Weapon retention? Back to basics... Your absolute best bet first, before the party starts... is distance from anyone that might be an opponent, period. Once you're carrying a sidearm -it's as much of a danger to you as it is to someone that intends to attack... Our trainers could snatch a service weapon from the best retention holsters around years ago, face to face or from the rear... in training situations (I left police work in 1995) , maybe there's some new gear I'm not aware of but it's still on you to protect that weapon - and do your best not to get smoked with your own gun. If you must approach a possible opponent, or they approach you... turn your weak side (non weapon side towards them -the "interview stance" ) while at the same time moving your weapon hand to your sidearm - not to draw it, but to protect it while at the same time allowing you to draw it if needed... Even when not armed that's a standard maneuver for me. It puts that possible opponent on notice that not only you may be armed -but you're in a position to draw and defend yourself if needed. The fact that your "weapon side" is not visible to an opponent - nor your weapon hand... can allow you to bluff very effectively when you're not armed at all (and I've actually used that technique several times over the years since I've never carried a firearm from the day I retired from police work to the present...).

None of what I've described involves the martial arts - but the next part would be basic stuff for any martial artist - before striking, grappling, using a second weapon, etc. is simple footwork. Most of us even old guys like me have a bit of dancing in us - use your feet to keep the needed distance, and maneuver away from an assailant - aided by a simple push with your weak hand to keep the needed distance to prepare to fight or prepare to draw your weapon. Not much more to say except that, if carrying a sidearm - you really don't want to engage in a fist fight or a wrestling match - particularly with a younger more fit individual -who really really intends harm... Your best defense is to back off, break away, run if you must. It will at least provide the distance needed to make that shoot or no shoot decision if things get ugly.

Now for the next level.. you're facing more than one possible assailant... All of the above applies but with the added danger that you must not allow one of them to move to your side or even worse move to a position behind you. That's a very bad situation indeed since you can't defend what you can't see and more than one opponent makes it very likely that you'll lose any physical struggle if things get ugly... Here's a true story.. One of our officers, a very fit confident guy, more than capable in any fight, approached two young men in front of a closed store that had a silent alarm. Instead of keeping his distance until a back-up could arrive he approached and was talking with one of them and allowed the second guy to ease to his side. He never saw the punch coming and was out cold on the ground allowing the two to remove his sidearm from it's holster and prepare to execute him as he lay helpless... The only thing that saved him was an elderly couple walking their dog who approached and scared them off (still holding onto his gun - which we never recovered... ). Those two young men got away and we later und the breach in that store where they'd just done a burglary... I try to avoid war stories - but this type of encounter could happen to any armed citizen. A simple encounter might have found the breach in that store where they'd just done a burglary... I try to avoid war stories - but this type of encounter could happen to any armed citizen. A simple encounter might have some serious stuff going on - that you have no knowledge of and that might motivate an attack when you least expect it. Those basic tactics that I've just described might save you - without the "John Wayne" fight for your life... In my era a significant number of cops killed on the job - were killed with their own weapons in one encounter or another. This should be a concern for every armed citizen since the gun you carry might be your greatest danger...
This man said it best. If you haven't been properly trained by someone who is an expert on the subject and done MANY repetitions of realistic scenario-based training, you don't know how to do it. The same can be said for firearms proficiency- it requires live rounds downrange to even get an idea how you MAY do in such a situation. People tend to fall to their level of training- "rising to the occassion" really isn't a thing. The difference is that this type of training isn't as "fun" as shooting targets. This type of realistic training will require physical effort and likley some rolling around on the ground, with some bumps, bruises, etc.
 
I carry a knife (usually a Spyderco) in my weak-side pocket in anticipation of needing a backup in the event my strong arm is locked onto an arm trying to take my strong-side gun.

When I taught concealed carry, I did explain the concept to the students, and told them that if they were going to open-carry, they should use a retention holster.
 
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I'm more likely to leave my gun at home than my OC.

I've never actually had anybody try to grab my gun. I mean actually get up close enough to me to put their hands on it.

I've had a couple people threaten to beat my ass and take my gun at work and I've had a few that I strongly suspected were considering it.

In each case I put my OC in my off hand and started shaking it up. When I worked for G4S they taught us if time permitted to always shake up the OC before using it.

I'm not sure why but just seeing me doing that backed a couple people up.
 
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This man said it best. If you haven't been properly trained by someone who is an expert on the subject and done MANY repetitions of realistic scenario-based training, you don't know how to do it. The same can be said for firearms proficiency- it requires live rounds downrange to even get an idea how you MAY do in such a situation. People tend to fall to their level of training- "rising to the occassion" really isn't a thing. The difference is that this type of training isn't as "fun" as shooting targets. This type of realistic training will require physical effort and likley some rolling around on the ground, with some bumps, bruises, etc.

This 100%.
 
Weapons retention for CCW?

While running errands and just out and about. I notice people who are carrying.
Of course you have those that feel that open carry is best. I notice their crappy holsters with either poor retention or secured to the point that they can't retrieve them.
Then the IWB carry 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. I carry this way a little bit myself. But if I can see it I can take it away from you. Most people are just going on with their lives and not worried about retention of their firearm. This is why I say that it is easier to remove a firearm from someone that is carrying a firearm on their backside.
IWB appendix carry. This is a decent choice for carry. It conceals well and is difficult to unarm someone.
Pocket carry, my preferred way to carry. Very secured, difficult to see, and you have the ability to have your hand on your weapon.

Carrying a knife. I personally think a flipper folder is a great choice for a defense tool. You simply look like most rednecks. Ready tackle the next box that needs opening. With a pocket clip it is easy to retrieve and for the most part you don't appear to be a threat to society. If I carry a knife for defense it's a flipper. I'm not sure if someone is going to try to disarm you by trying to get your pocket clipped knife?
My normal EDC consists of a SAK and for the past several months my S&W Shield Plus or BODYGUARD 2.0. I did throw my 442 in my pocket for a few night get away. I wanted to be able to carry it in my winter coat pocket. The simple Blackhawk holster is easy to draw from.
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In August 2022 my wife and I went to Walmart to replace our phones. I don't remember what was going on but that particular Walmart was packed out. I mean it was like Black Friday.

Those of you know cattle know that they can be very skittish. Cattle have been known to stampede in response to a meteor shower.

That's what the crowd in that Walmart was like.

I remember walking through the crowd and walking right by some clueless woman who was "Open Carrying" a Ruger LCP or LC9 in the pocket of her Yoga pants and this woman was not the type of woman you would want to see in Yoga pants.

I literally brushed her gun back of my hand and she didn't even notice.

That's most people who Open Carry to me.
 
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Knives are best used for psychological deterrence (brandishing) than as a weapon to quickly stop an attacker during an entangled grappling fight.

In an entangled grappling fight, an attacker often doesn't realize he/she is being stabbed/slashed.

A push dagger or clinch pick is a far better choice than any folder.
 
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