Weapons retention for CCW?

Anchorite said:
You are absolutely correct. And as I like to remind folks, in a gun fight you don’t get to pick perfect parameters or circumstances, either. You get the fight you get.
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Yes, but ...

The common word in the terms fist fight, knife fight, gun fight is ... fight. That may mean an unexpected, rapidly evolving, dynamic and chaotic encounter. That being the case, there may not be time to stop and scan through that mental list of reactions and techniques. Instead, it might be better for it to be the result of unconscious competence in reaction and technique. That requires a lot of work to put down those skills and techniques. Sadly, probably not the sort of thing that is going to happen after a 1 day class, or even a weekend seminar experience.

The person who flails their arms and fists around in some chaotic fight may not find their flailing to be as effective (except maybe by happenstance) as the guy who has trained and practiced to strike at specific anatomical targets, and do so when things are coming fast and fuzzy.

Now, while luck can always come along and play a part, luck is fickle and not to be relied upon.

Of course, a little knowledge (both book and experiential) is a good thing, but then there's being able to access the actual gear, and have the strength and endurance to utilize it. Carrying a bit of gear/kit as a talisman may sooth the mind, but what if the world throws something our way there the rubber meets the road?

Don't claim to have the answers, let alone be anybody's idea of anything approaching an expert, but I've seen and experienced enough in my life to have recognized there are some sticky and uncomfortable questions that persist.

When someone once threatened me with a broken beer bottle, outside in the parking lot of a bar, it seemed a bit contrived, but my reaction prevented the meathead from carrying out his drunken threats ... and the 2 women with him stepped in front of him and asked me not to hurt him. (Huh? Hell, I wasn't the one with a jagged beer bottle in my hand.) He had enough sense in his drunken condition to let them defuse the situation and disarm him.

The first time someone told me they were going to gut me, and then seriously tried to put a large fixed blade knife in me? It left an impression in my thinking. Fortunately for me, by that time I'd had a little more than 10 years of some martial arts training behind me, and was able to make him miss. The next time someone pointed a fixed blade knife at me, I was a working cop. There was just enough distance (and a bed) between us, that he was able to see the error of his ways and changed his mind. He didn't want to be shot, and apparently believed he was a moment away from it. Happy ending.
 
shafter said:
It's infinitely harder to learn how to defend yourself against a knife attack than to learn how to use a knife for gun retention.
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In that context, when everything else is also working in your favor, yes ...

Another bit of insight is that in order to learn how to effectively defend against a knife attack, it's helpful to first learn how to use a knife.
 
It looks to me as if that ruined into a discussion of knife fighting. Let's see if we an better address the topic.
 
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Kleanbore said:
IKt looks to me as if that ruined into a discussion of knife fighting. Let's see if we a better address the topic.
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Let me see if I can move us in that direction.

I spent $19 on one of these.


IMG_3592.jpeg

It’s about the maximum practical length that will hide completely in my left front jeans pocket. I’m going to break out the leatherworking and/or kydex tools and make myself a pocket sheath and carrier for it, my pepper spray, and a spare magazine if I can make one fit. My pepper spray is supposed to be clipped to the top of my pocket but by the end of the day it always ends up in the bottom. I want to make something where everything stays fixed in a single, repeatable location so I can just reach in and grab it when needed. I will update when I’m done.
 
A firearm that remains fully concealed is less likely to be the subject of a sudden and unexpected gun grab. An assailant would need to be aware the gun is there to grab. Keeping a gun concealed prevents that awareness. They would need to remove the concealment garment to get access, which prevents any instantaneous access.

Knowing that you are armed, you should be conscious that every fight you're in is a gun fight because it involves a gun: yours. With that in mind, it's imperative to maintain distance from belligerents. Do what you can to keep distance. Don't get involved in tussles. Your plan should be to evade, retreat, and escape hostilities. If you're forced to engage, your best advantage is from a distance. You know what Dennis Tueller demonstrated.
 
I tend to avoid crowds for personal reasons outside of the fact I am armed most of the time. I am also aware that a "gun grab" can happen at any time and for any reason, properly concealed or not. I train in basic retention skills, but I also know that I will be "reactive" in that situation and will be dealing with someone who most likely has thought the attack through.

I do carry a knife, albeit a folder due to company policy. I also have trained with people who are skilled martial artists and they made me look stupid. I also learned that you have to train the basics as you WILL fall to that level, not "rise to the occasion." My SCUBA instructor drilled the basics into us to the point we did it by muscle memory 30 years ago. I also worked with a retired firefighter who drilled us religiously on fire safety, first aid, and how to not panic. We did basic steps over and over then combined those steps into a type of routine, similar to a dance.

I find a good way to simulate this is verbal drills, followed up with slow motion drills, then "full speed" drills. Learn more than just one or two moves and know when to use each one. Also understand that not every interaction requires the same level of reaction. Sometimes a good hard stare is all that is needed to avoid trouble.
 
Elkins45 said:
I disagree, especially since I'm the person who started the thread. The express purpose of putting together a pocket sheath/carrier system is to have a tool available to the off hand while the strong hand is securing the gun.

It's a weapon retention knife.
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Yes agreed. There are excellent options for that on the market but they aren't cheap.
 
obviously, it would be bet to prevent anyone from trying to take the gun.

That would start with keeping it unnoticed, and continue with keeping it unaccessible through distance, positioning, etc,

Suppose those things fail, and the guns grabbed?

I am untrained in knife fighting, but from what I have seen in real videos, the effect of knife wounds may not be anywhere near instantaneous. The defender may well end up fighting for the gun for some time.

Should he lose, he will have brought a gun to a gunfight.

Personally, I think I would prefer having a backup gun.

i do carry one, but not for retention purposes.
 
I think it's important to not draw conclusions about how a fight will go by watching untrained people. That's their reality not mine. My reality is hundreds if not thousands of hours devoted to various aspects of self defense from firearms to striking to grappling on the ground.

If one is unwilling or unable to put in the reps then sure, you probably won't be able to do very many things effectively but we should strive to train and drill as much as possible so if the day ever comes we can do what we intend to do with a high probability of success.
 
Soonerpesek said:
Thread title says:

Weapons retention for CCW?​


Concealed weapons aren’t only firearms….

But, that’s only my interpretation of English…

YMMV……..
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I supposed a knife grab could happen from someone's pocket but knives are so easily and cheaply acquired I dont see it being a common occurrence.
 
I personally have never considered using any form of blade as an option for a "tool" to used in a weapons-retention situation.

Having had to engage in physical activity to maintain control of a handgun on at least two occasions, there's just no way I could have brought a knife into play. But I am very grateful to have a lot of hours of training in defensive tactics, including defending against edged weapons, and weapons retention -- for free!:) I did have a friend while stationed in the Philippines who was a long time student of arnis (kali or escrima) and realized very quickly that to effectively employ any edged weapon, a lot of training is certainly recommended.
 
If this is a concern you should listen to what Massad Ayoob has to say about carrying a gun with a manual safety vs revolver or a something like a Glock with no manual safety. *Im going to butcher it so Id say look it up if it is of interest. But he outlines how long it takes for an assailant to shoot you with your own gun if he's able to acquire it off your person. A weapon with a safety on gives a you far more time to either flee or try to take it back. It changed how I choose to carry in certain environments. In crowded or urban areas I now tend to carry a gun with a manual safety.
 
Bearcat1982 said:
If this is a concern you should listen to what Massad Ayoob has to say about carrying a gun with a manual safety vs revolver or a something like a Glock with no manual safety. *Im going to butcher it so Id say look it up if it is of interest. But he outlines how long it takes for an assailant to shoot you with your own gun if he's able to acquire it off your person. A weapon with a safety on gives a you far more time to either flee or try to take it back. It changed how I choose to carry in certain environments. In crowded or urban areas I now tend to carry a gun with a manual safety.
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This is a very valid point. In my lifetime I’ve seen this go from manual safeties being common to being unusual, even spurned. The Sig P365 is available with a manual safety and those are typically sold for less than the ones without.

I’ve been carrying a Kahr P9 for 20+ years. I’ve always felt better about it than something like a Glock because even though it doesn’t have a manual safety it does have a long pull reminiscent of a DA revolver. I’ve always thought about that as a useful deterrent to “nervous trigger” under a stressful situation, but unfortunately it does nothing to prevent an unfamiliar person from simply yanking the trigger should they get hold of it.

I bought a P365 xl with a manual safety but haven’t really given it serious thought as a replacement for the gun I’m so used to carrying. I might have to start doing some training with it.
 
I would strongly caution against Ayoobs advice in this case. Firstly most gun grabs are going to be from an open carry situation. Carry a proper holster and you'll mitigate alot of the risk.

Secondly relying on your enemies incompetence is a recipe for disaster. We should never assume that whoever is watching us isn't aware of the kind of gun we have and how to operate it.

If your pistol of choice has a manual safety that's fine. Train with it and develop competence but if your rationale is that it will buy you time if you've screwed up so badly that a bad guy got your gun then that extra second isn't going to undo it.
 
shafter said:
I would strongly caution against Ayoobs advice in this case. Firstly most gun grabs are going to be from an open carry situation. Carry a proper holster and you'll mitigate alot of the risk.

Secondly relying on your enemies incompetence is a recipe for disaster. We should never assume that whoever is watching us isn't aware of the kind of gun we have and how to operate it.

If your pistol of choice has a manual safety that's fine. Train with it and develop competence but if your rationale is that it will buy you time if you've screwed up so badly that a bad guy got your gun then that extra second isn't going to undo it.
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No where does he say anything about relying on a bad guys ignorance. He does however go over studies that were done and real world situations and instances and how a manual safety likely changed the outcome. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss information from Massad Ayoob. That said carry how you are comfortable.
 
If a bad guy grabs your gun and it takes him a second to figure out your manual safety what are you going to do with that brief period of time to reverse the disaster that you've found yourself in? Pull another gun? Fight with skills you probably don't have because if you did you wouldn't have lost control in the first place? What is that second buying you?
 
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