Weapons retention for CCW?

[Elkins45]

If a bad guy grabs your gun and it takes him a second to figure out your manual safety what are you going to do with that brief period of time to reverse the disaster that you've found yourself in? Pull another gun? Fight with skills you probably don't have because if you did you wouldn't have lost control in the first place? What is that second buying you?

It gives you time to (a) deflect the muzzle, (b) slash the tendons of his forearm, (c) yank the gun back out of his now non-functional hand. Or alternatively, stab him in the eye. Or maybe just run away without being shot.

I’ll take the extra second every time I can get it.

 

[Bearcat1982]

If a bad guy grabs your gun and it takes him a second to figure out your manual safety what are you going to do with that brief period of time to reverse the disaster that you've found yourself in? Pull another gun? Fight with skills you probably don't have because if you did you wouldn't have lost control in the first place? What is that second buying you?

yeah I'm not really sure your argument. If you watched the video it was possibly several seconds and a lot can happen in several seconds, from retreat, to attack, and all in between. And Ayoob didn't nor am I imploring anyone to carry with a manual safety. He was only pointing out pros and cons, real life accounts and studies that have been done. And who's to say you lost your gun in a fight... you're cherry a picking scenario, and assuming what others may or may not be capable of. Several seconds of a bad guy fumbling with safety has saved lives, just as Im sure a good guy fumbling with one has cost lives, maybe their own. I don't dismiss the simplicity of a DA revolver, I carry one. I also don't dismiss the extra layer of protection a safety can provide. Its of my opinion both have advantages and I asses which I go with depending on what Im doing and where Ill be doing it.
YMMV, Carry how you think is best

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Fight with skills you probably don't have because if you did you wouldn't have lost control in the first place?

Ummm... there's this decision-making model called the OODA Loop.

There's also this thing called the reactionary gap.

A gun snatch can happen faster than the carrier perceives what's happening, or faster than the carrier can react effectively in time, if the snatcher gets inside the carrier's OODA Loop.

The brief time it might take the snatcher to figure out a manual safety ("Gee, the gun doesn't fire when I pull the trigger. What's wrong with the gun?) may allow the carrier to get inside the snatcher's OODA Loop. The snatcher's cognitive processes are focused on the gun instead of the carrier, allowing the carrier time to react.

 

[Kleanbore]

No where does he say anything about relying on a bad guys ignorance. He does however go over studies that were done and real world situations and instances and how a manual safety likely changed the outcome. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss information from Massad Ayoob

Right. However, those instances all involved police officers. Concealment was not an option.

If a bad guy grabs your gun and it takes him a second to figure out your manual safety what are you going to do with that brief period of time to reverse the disaster that you've found yourself in?

Ayoob's data showed much more than a second.

I do not like separate safety switches. I did, once, before I knew anything about defensive carry. Many, many of the semi autos from the 1900-1950 period had safety switches that were unsuited for lawful defensive usage.

 

[Bearcat1982]

Right. However, those instances all involved police officers. Concealment was not an option.

Ayoob's data showed much more than a second.

I do not like separate safety switches. I did, once, before I knew anything about defensive carry. Many, many of the semi autos from the 1900-1950 period had safety switches that were unsuited for lawful defensive usage.

absolutely those were all law enforcement. I don't think that would have changed had these been cases of guns being taken off a regular person though. But the studies were all based on experiences from police, and I don't know of any studies done with, or including CCW everyday citizens. So that would be pure speculation on my part.
Im not familiar enough with anything from the early to mid 1900's so I couldn't comment on that.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't think that would have changed had these been cases of guns being taken off a regular person though

The question is one of the chances of a concealed carrier having his weapon taken.

 

[Elkins45]

The question is one of the chances of a concealed carrier having his weapon taken.

I wonder if there’s any hard data on how often that happens?

 

[shafter]

The question is one of the chances of a concealed carrier having his weapon taken.

A cop can have his gun grabbed in a variety of ways and situations but for a concealed carrier the only way that makes such sense is that if the fight has become a grappling match either standing or on the ground and the bad guy feels the weapon or the good guy tries to draw it at grappling range and the bad guy gets his hands on it. Not impossible chances but much less likely than for law enforcement.

The thing is, you can survive a car crash by not wearing your seat belt but that doesn't mean that it makes sense to not wear one because the majority of the time it's the right thing to do. That's how I think of carrying with a manual safety or Israeli carry. There are cases where it may save you but more likely it will get you killed.

 

[Kleanbore]

I wonder if there’s any hard data on how often that happens?

When it comes to civilian use of force incidents, there is really no one who has reason to gather, read, and analyze large numbers of police reports and to put together the data.

I also question whether the police reports themselves go into sufficient detail.

 

[Elkins45]

That's how I think of carrying with a manual safety or Israeli carry. There are cases where it may save you but more likely it will get you killed.

This is totally anecdotal but I've seen at least one security cam video where a guy's shirt had ridden up over his concealed gun and the guy behind him grabbed it. I've never seen a security cam video where a guy got killed because he forgot to disengage the safety. maybe there are dozens of them, but I've never seen one.

Time to search YouTube I guess...

 

[Bearcat1982]

I searched for studies showing that a manual safety may be detrimental and honestly came up with Glock accidental discharge stories, and only opinion pieces on carrying.

 

[Bearcat1982]

There was a video I remember not from America, I think Brazil where I believe a off duty police was being robbed at gun point and while the bad guy wasn't looking he pulled his gun pulled the trigger, didn't disengage the safety and when he looked at his gun confused the bad guy shot him. I don't remember if he died or not. Its the only one I have seen that I recall but have seen many accidental discharge videos involving Glocks or alike.

 

[shafter]

When it comes to civilian use of force incidents, there is really no one who has reason to gather, read, and analyze large numbers of police reports and to put together the data.

I also question whether the police reports themselves go into sufficient detail.

Law enforcement gun grabs usually take place in the context of an existing use of force such as a fight that happens during the course of an arrest. There's a bunch of scenarios this can happen but they aren't typically just a cop walking down the street getting his gun grabbed.

I imagine most agencies do use of force reports in addition to the incident report which would articulate an attempted gun grab but with every agency keeping their own records on their own version of forms it would be extremely hard to compile statistics on how it takes place.

 

[scaatylobo]

Cops wear security holsters but regular folks tent to carry in open top IWB holsters. Have you ever considered what you would do if someone happened to grab for your weapon either during a physical altercation or because they accidentally caught a glimpse of it? For years I carried a folding knife on my off side, and a couple of years ago I replaced it with a double-edge OTF auto. It was pointed out to me by a smart person that the process of retrieving, opening and obtaining a fighting grip while simultaneously fighting to retain your gun in the holster might be quite difficult.

This revelation has led me to reconsider the best tool for weapon retention. Part of me thinks a push knife carried left side IWB is a good solution because you grip, draw and deploy it in the same hand position. Another thought was to abandon the knife altogether and just carry a P32 or LCP in a left hand IWB holster. Having a second gun seems like a good way to keep someone from grabbing your first gun.

Thoughts?

I fully expect to be ignored on this subject since I have a great deal of experience in teaching it and took a few courses too.
As an LEO D/T instructor it was a real item that was taught , hands on.
Conclusion is that if a weapon grab is attempted it has a HIGH likelyhood of success.
That is why I dislike open carry, as I know that the vast majority [ better than 99% ] are not trained in weapon retention.
My level 2 security holster was defeated EVERY TIME by a well trained martial artist.
Who could just as likely to have been a convict with a few years in the graybar hotel.
Concealed carry AND situational awareness are vital IF you are armed.
Please feel free to tell me I am wrong, I am used to the keyboard ninja by now.

 

[.38 Special]

I fully expect to be ignored on this subject since I have a great deal of experience in teaching it and took a few courses too.
As an LEO D/T instructor it was a real item that was taught , hands on.
Conclusion is that if a weapon grab is attempted it has a HIGH likelyhood of success.
That is why I dislike open carry, as I know that the vast majority [ better than 99% ] are not trained in weapon retention.
My level 2 security holster was defeated EVERY TIME by a well trained martial artist.
Who could just as likely to have been a convict with a few years in the graybar hotel.
Concealed carry AND situational awareness are vital IF you are armed.
Please feel free to tell me I am wrong, I am used to the keyboard ninja by now.

I agree with the underlying premise, but I do wonder how many well trained martial artists sideline as criminals who take guns away from CCW men - and I'm also not sure that prisoners have ready access to holsters and blue guns with which to practice the technique.

Regardless, it certainly seems that by far the best line of defense is to keep the gun hidden.

 

[Kleanbore]

- and I'm also not sure that prisoners have ready access to holsters and blue guns with which to practice the technique.

I've seen them training in the yard. No blue gun needed.

 

[shafter]

I fully expect to be ignored on this subject since I have a great deal of experience in teaching it and took a few courses too.
As an LEO D/T instructor it was a real item that was taught , hands on.
Conclusion is that if a weapon grab is attempted it has a HIGH likelyhood of success.
That is why I dislike open carry, as I know that the vast majority [ better than 99% ] are not trained in weapon retention.
My level 2 security holster was defeated EVERY TIME by a well trained martial artist.
Who could just as likely to have been a convict with a few years in the graybar hotel.
Concealed carry AND situational awareness are vital IF you are armed.
Please feel free to tell me I am wrong, I am used to the keyboard ninja by now.

I also have studied the topic as well as taught it and agreed largely with what you said.

The context of the gun grabs matters significantly. If one understands how the holster operates and approaches from behind then there is a good chance of success as you have both the element of surprise as well as the right angle to manipulate the holster. I've seen videos where this happens when a cop turns his back on a suspect who knows he's about to go to jail. It's even happened where someone is cuffed in front and they manage to make a grab.

The most easy to defend grab is when it comes from the front and you're standing face to face. It's easy to see the attack coming and the defense is pretty easy. Alot will depend on the commitment of the attacker. If he's committed and turns it into a real fight that changes things.

One common situation is there's a fight that turns into a standing clinch or grappling on the ground. The bad guy gets a dominant position and starts fighting for the gun, or the officer reaches the point where they feel they have to shoot the bad guy off of them and draws the gun himself resulting in a fight over it. This is a really bad situation as the bigger and stronger person is going to win unless you have significant grappling training or are able to deploy a tool such as a knife.

Violent criminals do study and practice this so good guys should be well versed in defending it.

 

[.38 Special]

I've seen them training in the yard. No blue gun needed.

How does one train for a gun grab from a retention holster with neither a holster nor a gun?

 

[shafter]

How does one train for a gun grab from a retention holster with neither a holster nor a gun?

It's not difficult to explain the mechanics of the holster or even show a video of it because yes they do have phones in there.

Even without a holster and gun one can still practice approaching and immobilizing the defending arm to clear the way for the grab. The smartest way to make a grab is a sucker punch and then take the gun off your unconscious body. Or, grab the defending arm and immobilize it. If you go straight for the gun it's easier to defend.

 

[Kleanbore]

The smartest way to make a grab is a sucker punch and then take the gun off your unconscious body. Or, grab the defending arm and immobilize it. If you go straight for the gun it's easier to defend.

It strikes me that many people thinking about the use oof retention holsters may visualize the attacker going straight for the gun. That wouldn't make much sense, IMHO.

 

[shafter]

It strikes me that many people thinking about the use oof retention holsters may visualize the attacker going straight for the gun. That wouldn't make much sense, IMHO.

It happens sometimes. I've seen it in jail sally port videos etc but it's definitely not the best way and the really dangerous criminals know this.

 

[wayneinFL]

The smartest way to make a grab is a sucker punch and then take the gun off your unconscious body. Or, grab the defending arm and immobilize it. If you go straight for the gun it's easier to defend.

That's a good point. I had a co-worker who woke up lying next to a piece of pipe, with a headache and no wallet. He could have had a gun padlocked to his belt and the attacker would have gotten it.

 

[luzyfuerza]

IIRC, Ayoob also discussed the utility of magazine disconnects to counter an attempted gun grab. The idea was that if you are struggling with someone over your gun, you can try to press the magazine release to disable the piece if the grab is successful.

Now, I'm not a proponent of magazine disconnects.

But I'm surprised that nobody else here has brought the idea up.

 

[shafter]

IIRC, Ayoob also discussed the utility of magazine disconnects to counter an attempted gun grab. The idea was that if you are struggling with someone over your gun, you can try to press the magazine release to disable the piece if the grab is successful.

Now, I'm not a proponent of magazine disconnects.

But I'm surprised that nobody else has brought the idea up.

I think it's a terrible idea. You're in a deadly force situation, why on earth would you want to disable to tool you need most? Better to learn basic skills at a high level than to try to pull off gimmicks in a fight for your life. Even if you disable the gun they're may well beat you to death with it.

 

[Bearcat1982]

IIRC, Ayoob also discussed the utility of magazine disconnects to counter an attempted gun grab. The idea was that if you are struggling with someone over your gun, you can try to press the magazine release to disable the piece if the grab is successful.

Now, I'm not a proponent of magazine disconnects.

But I'm surprised that nobody else here has brought the idea up.

Im also not a fan of magazine disconnects. But I believe in the same video (if not it was another) there is an instance where magazine disconnect saved an officers life. Dropping a magazine isn't a gimmick, it was in that case using a function of the firearm used to render the gun unable to fire to save themself from being shot. Again with a disconnect or a manual safety theres pros and cons.