Wayne Clemon
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They put lanyard rings on guns for just that purpose
Weapons retention for CCW?
- Thread starter Elkins45
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Elkins45
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I’m trying to imagine how a lanyard on an IWB concealed gun would work. Do you just stuff it down into your pants and hope it doesn’t hang up on something when you draw?
I used to jog with a keltec 380 with the lanyard ring and that elastic lanyard that came with it. I wore it IWB on my right , with the lanyard over my left shoulder.
I tried this at the range. Very accessible. If you got a bad grip on that little bitty gun, the lanyard pulled it in place when you pushed your arms out. And pushing out like that, it stabilized everything like a sling supported rifle.
If you ever had a gun grab you could run away and it's tied to you.
There has to be a reason why cops don't do this, though.
Because gun grabs usually result in the person getting shot. A lanyard won't stop that and it's just one more thing to get tangled up in equipment including possible the trigger on reholstering.
Where on Earth did you get that idea?
A lanyard would not be at all effective in preventing a gun grab.
Lanyard rings were at one time provided for military carry (OWB) to help prevent soldiers from losing their handguns, but they proved to be a poor solution, and that functionality was reallocated to the holster flap.
Bearcat1982
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I have never thought about a lanyard or am a proponent. I used to jog in a sturdier than nylon shorts with a 380 in my pocket for 6-8miles fairly regularly at one time. I was on country roads and my concern was stray dogs or rabid animal of some sort. BUT... wayneinFL clearly found something that worked for him and he was comfortable with it and practiced at the range. So I have no reason to believe it was unsafe, unreliable or etc.
But Shafter you seem to not want to give one inch on any idea anyone has or tactic that may give themselves an upper hand in surviving a gun grab. Even when specific events are recounted by someone like Masaad Ayoob and how individuals actually did survive. I haven't read start to finish this entire thread but since I added that seems to be the theme.
So honestly and politely asking in your eyes what's the tactic. Shafter is put in the unfortunate scenarios,
1 bad guy notices you're carrying and goes for the gun.
2 bad guy notices you're carrying and acquires your gun.
@shafter knows what he is talking about. To answer the question, the only reliable way to have th e upper hand in a gun n grab is to avoid it.
Massad pointed out that there are and cons of having a separate safety switch. They may help, some, in the event that the gun is taken. They can be a bad thing in self defense. Which is more likely?
I'll offer an answer:
- Prevent people from noticing your gun, through effective concealment and through prudent behavior.
- Prevent the grab by drawing, turning, and moving relative to the threat to minimize his opportunity.
- As a last resort, carry a BUG.
The Night Rider
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Where have you been that you actually watched people doing this "In the yard".
Driving past a correctional institution on old US 66 near Pacific, MO. Corrected
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I'm not going to give an inch on what I know to be good or bad practices. I've been training this for a long time now both in training and in real world situations.
I have nothing against Mas Ayoob and believe his advice on legal matters to be very good but he isn't who I would turn to for tactics. I'm not saying he doesn't offer good information, just that I don't think he is the final word.
Anything can work once but in self defense we want to rely on proven techniques and not tricks that only work if you get lucky.
As for your scenarios it's impossible to answer as there isn't enough information. Is the gun grab from in front or behind? Is this concealed or a triple retention duty holster?
I think it's very unlikely that my gun would be taken from me unless I was completely ambushed. If I was knocked unconscious then it's game over for me. It can happen to anyone if you drop your guard which everyone does at some point.
If I see it coming then I'm not worried about it. My grappling and physicality is such that there just aren't that many people on the street committing crimes that would be skilled enough to do it without using a weapon themselves or superior numbers.
The whole idea is to set yourself up for success from the start. Build a layered system for yourself that works for what you can realistically do.
Situational awareness, keeping the gun side bladed, and reacting decisively before they get their hands on the gun. Rely on simple techniques that work reliably and train train train.
The Night Rider
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So you were able to discern from what I'm going to assume was quite some distance away what they were doing while you were just driving by in your car?
scaatylobo
Member
And your not of the opinion that a blunt instrument is LESS dangerous that a live loaded firearm ?
Since I have been there, I will tell you that YES a magazine disconnect is a GREAT idea if you wind up in bad breath distance in a fight.
AND your weapon is in a 'duty' holster.
And to all who do not understand this , FACT is that inmates are very inventive and YES do practice all sorts of gun grabs and ways to malfunction a Taser.
Y'all need to ask the correction officers what they see on a DAILIY basis.
Yes I agree a blunt object is less dangerous which is exactly why I don't want one. It's far more productive to train proven techniques for weapon retention than a gimmicky technique like a magazine drop. Sure it may work but I wouldn't want to bank on that because it depends on A) You being able to do it in a real fight, and B) the attacker giving up. Why even carry if your mindset is to disable the gun when you need it most?
- Situational awareness
- Proper bladed positioning
- Know how to clinch/grapple
- Know how to secure your firearm so it can't be drawn.
- Know how to shoot from a retention position
- Understand how to disable an attacker with either an empty hand or a blade/tool to free your gun hand.
These are the training points. If you fail to train these, or you try all of the above and they fail and you somehow manage to drop the magazine and survive you'll have my applause but that should be a miniscule part of what you train.
Bearcat1982
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scaatylobo
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Sorry but your WRONG !.
As one who was a martial artist for half a century.
AND taught defensive tactics at the academy for 22 years.
I was of the opinion that no one would ever get my gun = WRONG !.
During a 'weapon retenton class" [ did you take any ? ] I was disarmed by a large powerful man.
Then I was disarmed by a martial artist who was just better than I.
As long as you 'plan' to never meet anyone better than you = I say you better have that plan in case your gun is taken.
Back up gun, back up knife, deactivate your gun = ANYTHING is better than losing your gun.
And yes its a fact that many officers shot in the line of duty are shot WITH THEIR OWN GUN.
What martial arts do you train in if I may ask?
Most law enforcement have very little training in any defensive tactics and the tactics they are taught are pure junk. The number one area that is known to be a joke in the training community is law enforcement defensive tactics. It's just the truth. I watch videos of law enforcement uses of force and it's painfully obvious most of them have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Most agencies have no physical fitness requirements after academy graduation and officers get grossly out of shape. Defensive tactics are taught in short blocks a couple times a year if you are in a "good" agency, and rarely to never in many agencies. Officers become "instructors" after taking one class with no prior training and no follow on training. They're absolutely clueless and it's no surprise that they get their guns taken.
I never said no one could disarm me, but I did say the context where it could happen. I would have to be taken completely off guard. It's possible, everyone has lapses in situational awareness at times, but if I see it coming the chances that a solo attacker will succeed are very small and it's not because of gimmicks. It's because of years of hard realistic training.
I'm not attacking law enforcement here and I hope you don't perceive me as attacking you because you make alot of good posts on these boards that I agree with.
fastbolt
Member
Folks, weapon retention is a subject that's difficult to discuss because of the differences between openly visible and concealed weapons, and the possible lack of reporting specifics. Sure, we have the LEOKA numbers we can examine (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted), but even those rely upon voluntary reporting from agencies. It's been more than 10 years since I went to a LEOKA class, so I thought I'd look it up. Here are the statistics from LEOKA covering 2010-2019. Note that of the reported 511 cops killed, only 20 were killed with their own weapons. That's a significant decrease in the numbers I was seeing reported before I retired (when it was sometimes as high as 15%). Now, it's becoming relatively rare. The reason(s)? Dunno, but I'd speculate that it has a lot to do with better retention for duty holsters, supplemented by better training and officer awareness.
Now, how can this data be considered for private citizen victims? Beats the hell out of me. Not sure anybody tracks that sort of data point, let alone voluntarily reports it to some centralized data base. Maybe the commercial (monetized) web and pod folks scour news reporting, but that relies upon accurate reporting and looking for that specific data point.
Bottom line? Concealed means concealed. I've seen my fair share of folks lawfully toting concealed firearms that weren't what you might call effectively concealed. Violent criminals can develop an awareness of who may be armed, out of self preservation, looking for UC, off-duty and plainclothes cops, as well as other armed criminals who might be a threat, as well as inattentive (lazy & sloppy) armed citizens.
Open carry? Best of luck to you. Once I was out of uniform and into plainclothes, and on my own time off-duty, I never wanted to have to openly carry a visible handgun again. The most effective way to prepare to prevent a gun-grab is for everyone else not to even be aware that you're armed in the first place. Once an attacker, or attackers (plural), becomes aware that an intended victim may be armed (or is plainly, visibly armed), the advantage may shift to the attacker(s) in looking to attack the victim using surprise, speed, and overwhelming force ... and use those advantages to disarm the victim and gain control of the weapon. Being on the back foot during a surprise attack isn't exactly a way to stack the odds in our favor.
Yes, as both a martial artist and a cop I trained to deal with gun grabs. Having to openly carry (uniform duty) presents a severe disadvantage because everybody knows you're armed. Concealment is arguably a better way to help mitigate some threats.
Me? I rather liked it when other experienced firearms instructors would look at me showing up for some quals or training classes (as an instructor staff member), and ask me why the hell I wasn't armed ... only to be surprised when they learned I was pocket-holstering a weapon. I've surprised my fair share of other active and retired cops the same way. They'd look for signs of a concealed weapon when I was wearing a tailored t-shirt or light sweater, and after looking at my waistline carefully, even when I was bending to sit/stand, turning, bending and reaching, they couldn't see anything where they expected to see signs of a OWB, IWB, AIWB or ankle carry method ... so they thought I was unarmed.
Table 19
ucr.fbi.gov
Now, how can this data be considered for private citizen victims? Beats the hell out of me. Not sure anybody tracks that sort of data point, let alone voluntarily reports it to some centralized data base. Maybe the commercial (monetized) web and pod folks scour news reporting, but that relies upon accurate reporting and looking for that specific data point.
Bottom line? Concealed means concealed. I've seen my fair share of folks lawfully toting concealed firearms that weren't what you might call effectively concealed. Violent criminals can develop an awareness of who may be armed, out of self preservation, looking for UC, off-duty and plainclothes cops, as well as other armed criminals who might be a threat, as well as inattentive (lazy & sloppy) armed citizens.
Open carry? Best of luck to you. Once I was out of uniform and into plainclothes, and on my own time off-duty, I never wanted to have to openly carry a visible handgun again. The most effective way to prepare to prevent a gun-grab is for everyone else not to even be aware that you're armed in the first place. Once an attacker, or attackers (plural), becomes aware that an intended victim may be armed (or is plainly, visibly armed), the advantage may shift to the attacker(s) in looking to attack the victim using surprise, speed, and overwhelming force ... and use those advantages to disarm the victim and gain control of the weapon. Being on the back foot during a surprise attack isn't exactly a way to stack the odds in our favor.
Yes, as both a martial artist and a cop I trained to deal with gun grabs. Having to openly carry (uniform duty) presents a severe disadvantage because everybody knows you're armed. Concealment is arguably a better way to help mitigate some threats.
Me? I rather liked it when other experienced firearms instructors would look at me showing up for some quals or training classes (as an instructor staff member), and ask me why the hell I wasn't armed ... only to be surprised when they learned I was pocket-holstering a weapon. I've surprised my fair share of other active and retired cops the same way. They'd look for signs of a concealed weapon when I was wearing a tailored t-shirt or light sweater, and after looking at my waistline carefully, even when I was bending to sit/stand, turning, bending and reaching, they couldn't see anything where they expected to see signs of a OWB, IWB, AIWB or ankle carry method ... so they thought I was unarmed.
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Shawn Dodson
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How many real fights have you been in?
Dozens on the street and several in the cage and thousands of sparring or rolling rounds.
Shawn Dodson
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Against, drunk, drugged, psychotic, and determined aggressors, that aren't constrained by any rules?
Got any videos of your real fights (not sparring) to share with us?
Yes, all of the above to your first question.
To your second question I'm not sharing any photos or videos of myself on a public forum. I'm not trying to prove a resume here or beat my own chest. I'm contributing to the serious topic at hand based on significant training and experience. Good information is good information regardless of resume.
Shawn Dodson
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I'm trying to determine your credibility.
luzyfuerza
Member
There is another facet of weapons retention that concealed carriers should consider. Sometimes, in the course of an attack, armed citizens may need to take extraordinary steps to protect their gun from being found by an attacker who has the drop on them. And perhaps to draw and use that gun in less-than-ideal circumstances if they believe that it is likely to be discovered.
This is highlighted by an account that @The Night Rider linked to in another recent thread:
In summary, an armed robber got the drop on a group of friends, and ordered them to the ground. One of these friends was carrying concealed. When ordered to the ground, the armed friend didn't want the robber to find his gun, so he took the gun from his holster and lay down on it.
The robber was capable; he never presented an opportunity to be counter-ambushed by the concealed carrier. But when the robber frisked the friends looking for "wallet/jewelry/phone" he discovered the empty holster. "Well, well, well, what do we have here? Where's the gun?" This led to a bad-breath-distance shooting between the armed citizen and the robber. Both were injured, but nobody died.
If for some reason a carry piece is likely to be discovered by a bad guy, then a concealed carrier loses the option to try to fit in with the other harmless sheep about to be shorn, and perhaps should be prepared to respond more aggressively.
This is highlighted by an account that @The Night Rider linked to in another recent thread:
Lateral movement to escape line of fire
People put a lot of confidence into something not understood and it has and will get people killed. Basically, action is only guaranteed to start before reaction, by definition. There is no guarantee action will complete before reaction completes. When it comes to fighting, nobody gives a...
www.thehighroad.org
In summary, an armed robber got the drop on a group of friends, and ordered them to the ground. One of these friends was carrying concealed. When ordered to the ground, the armed friend didn't want the robber to find his gun, so he took the gun from his holster and lay down on it.
The robber was capable; he never presented an opportunity to be counter-ambushed by the concealed carrier. But when the robber frisked the friends looking for "wallet/jewelry/phone" he discovered the empty holster. "Well, well, well, what do we have here? Where's the gun?" This led to a bad-breath-distance shooting between the armed citizen and the robber. Both were injured, but nobody died.
If for some reason a carry piece is likely to be discovered by a bad guy, then a concealed carrier loses the option to try to fit in with the other harmless sheep about to be shorn, and perhaps should be prepared to respond more aggressively.
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I understand that. My message is train, train, and train some more. That's really the only way. Put in the reps, put in the time. Unfortunately this is something that few cops and few armed citizens are willing to spend their time and money on.
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