Webley revolver ID help please.

[jrfoxx]

I'm looking at buying a neat, owner believes possibly German or Austrian
webley patent revolver, but I'm no Webley expert by any means, and the current owner doesn't know a whole lot either, so I'm hoping someone here can fill in some info. I'm told it has a 1 3/4" barrel, folding trigger, Proof marks visible are a Crown over "PN", crown over a shield, and it's dated 1941. I'm told a .32 S&W wont fit, nor will .32acp,he says both are too big, and believes its .320 cal (?). I like oddities, and the Webley guns are that special kind of ugly like Nagant revolvers, and I've been wanting one for a while, and the price seems right, and I finally have the $$ available, so...

Anyone able to ID this gun and it's correct ammo/caliber?

Thanks, as I'm not finding a lot with google.

ETA:from digging around, it appears to be of the "Bulldog" type/style/model, and my copy of Cartridges of the World does show a round called ".320 Revolver" (bullet dia. of .317, which explains the .32's being "too big", but it looking like .32 cal), which it says was designed originally for the Webley's, and was the inspiration for the 32 Short Colt.Not finding anything on the crown over P.N. though (the crown is common to several countries, but nothing found on P.N. specifically)

Also, assuming I cant find ammo, or it's way too expensive, anybody know what I can use to make some? heres the stats on .320 Revolver:

bullet dia: .317 neck dia: .320 no shoulder base dia: .322 rim dia: .350 case length: .62 ctg length: .90 bullet is apparently 80gr.

I'm having trouble finding something that can just be cut down to work, but this isnt my forte, and there may be other possible tricks I dont really know much about like fire-forming, blowing a smallr ctg. out, etc.
Here's the pics I have available:

 

[SDC]

There should be additional proof marks on the rear of the cylinder, and possibly a maker's mark on the grip frame underneath the grips. This revolver is an upsized "Velo-Dog", commonly called a "Puppy" or "Pocket Bulldog", and could have been made in Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, or Germany.

 

[jrfoxx]

Jim Watson over on TFL tells me its a cheap Italian knockoff, due to the lack of maker info on the gun, and apparently the crown over P.N. is an Italian black powder proof mark. I'll assume he's right about the Italian proof mark at the minimum, and even the "cheap" part based on me saying there is no makers info, but I don't have hands on access to the gun, so you may be right and there may be something under the grips or the rear of the cylinder the owner doesn't know about. I can only go off what he has listed.

Sounds like it's likely not worth the $100 shipped, especially since there is no available ammo or brass in .320 Revolver, although Jim, and some others on the net say .32 Short Colt will work.I'm a little leery, personally (not saying Jim or anyone else is wrong and giving bad info, I just dont know enough about the gun or the two cartridges to make the call personally, and prefer to err on the safe side unless a bunch of people were to reassure me it's safe, since I dont know enough myself), based on the rim dia., and ctg. OAL listed for the 2 in Cartridges of the World. The rim dia. is listed as .024 wider. rim thickness for the .320 isn't listed, so no idea how close that is to .32 Short Colt.Plus. .32 Short Colt is a little spendy for what it is (~$30 per 50), so I think I'm gonna pass. Not worth having if I cant shoot it. It would only be worth having for display only if it were a British Webley, IMHO, and since it's just a similar style with a few Webley patented parts in it, and the lack/cost of ammo.....

Thanks for the extra info though. Hadn't heard of the "puppy" or "pocket bulldog" names for them before.

 

[Steven Mace]

jrfoxx, I just have a few pieces of information. The rim thickness for the .320 Revolver case is .04" as listed in The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions - Third Edition. The same book lists the following process for making cases from another case.

1. Start with a .32 Colt Long case.

2. Turn rim to .350" diameter and back chamfer.

3. Trim case to .62" overall and chamfer.

4. Then full length size.

Also, I believe to crown over PN was an Italian blackpowder proof used from about 1923-1951. Hope this helps!

Steve Mace

 

[Ron James]

And please, you need to get away from the Webley concept. It is to a Webley as a motor scooter is to a motor cycle. They are both firearms but other wise!! jrfoxx,, this was a very inexpensive firearm even when new. Nice to put in a shadow box for a conversation piece, bit I don't think I would shoot it even if ammo was available. Good luck.

 

[Jim Watson]

you need to get away from the Webley concept

So true. It is much more similar to the Italian 1889 Glisenti service revolver, folding trigger variant.