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Weekend Militia raids by ATF.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by TexasRifleman, Mar 29, 2010.

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  1. everallm

    everallm Member

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    Substitute Moslem for Christian and I wonder how much righteous indignation we would be hearing in the thread...?

    As it is, the thread has nothing I can see on 2A, AWB, CCW etc etc etc
     
  2. waldonbuddy

    waldonbuddy member

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    From what I read the government agencies were monitoring the members of the malitia's email since 08. I wonder what prompted the gov to start doing this?

    Curiouser, and curiouser Alice once said...........
     
  3. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't think anyone is doing that, however this morning before the indictment was opened people were posting in extreme defense of these "victims of ATF abuse".

    We're still waiting to see what happened, so a nice neutral stance is the place to be for now it seems... This one could still go either way.
     
  4. ezypikns

    ezypikns Member

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    Do the words.......

    "Innocent until proven guilty."

    Mean anything?
     
  5. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    Is there an actual definition to a WMD? Is an automobile with a rag for a gas cap a WMD? That evil propane tank mounted on a BBQ?
    I could understand a bomb, explosive device, etc. but weapon of mass destruction? Doesn't that mean it's nuclear, biological or chemical?

    Unfortunately I think calling yourself a "militia" attracts a whole lot of unwanted attention from 3 letter government acronyms, regardless of your beliefs.
     
  6. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    The good thing about the US is that you can say what you feel as long as you stay within the guidelines we all (citizens) agree on. If they indeed broke the law they do deserve the time. I will reserve my judgment until there are lots more facts. The news is playing it up big time tonight on the evening report.:fire: This is not a good thing for the 2nd Amend. rights if the news tries to tie this to all the legal firearms holders.:banghead:
     
  7. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    Nail them terrorists to a cross. What's with the 'alleged?' Terrorists have no rights.

    Oh, wait, these were white, Christian terrorists? My mistake. There's obviously more to the story than the MSM and the BATFE are letting on.

    Some day I'll get the hang of right wing hypocrisy.

    Also, what does this have to do with RKBA?
     
  8. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    According to the indictment, nothing, which was sort of my point in posting it after all the handwringing earlier in the day. :)

    It should be a non issue from gun owner's perspective, other than watching to make sure the media doesn't try to tie this to "gun ownership" in general, which so far none of them seem to have done.
     
  9. Evergreen

    Evergreen Member

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    Well, as far as this affecting RKBA activists, it sounds like a majority of their attacks would be carried out with bombs. So, its true, our right to bear and keep bombs is at stake. LOL

    I think if they end up banning guns one day, bombs will be the obvious weapon of choice and they have proven more effective in places such as Iraq, against US soldiers, then guns.

    Russia has the strictest gun control in the world, perhaps, yet look how many people died in the train attack yesterday?? 40 and counting. Thousands died in 9/11 without one shot fired. Not even one.

    There will always be groups of psychopaths. The mentality that the average law abiding citizen should be reduced to a peasant because of crazy militant groups is absurd. Rather, citizens should band together to put an end to any fanatics. Whether they are in the government or a group of lunatics in the woods.
     
  10. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    If anything, this would tie to the RKBA in that these guys legally owned guns. It is ridiculous cause they probably legally owned cars too. But nobody here ever accused the anti's of having the ability for rationally founded debate.
     
  11. slabuda

    slabuda Member

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    Guilty or not, conspiracy or not, set up or not, I dont give a hoot. Let the courts decide...

    All I care about is that they will be shown as "RIGHT WING EXTREMESTS" who "CLING TO THEIR GUNS AND RELIGION" ETC....

    and hence lumped into the same pool as good honest law abiding gun owners making us all look like kooks when we arent any where near a bunch of kooks.


    Once again..."one bad apple...."
     
  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Member

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    The Indictment: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/0329stone.pdf
    Isn't it a bit ironic that these guys were arrested the weekend after the Senators were threatened with violence and vandalism? Could it be possible that this small militia group may be a scapegoat to send a message to all militias to more or less "watch it - don't push your luck or this will happen". Timing on it is just a bit too convenient IMHO.

    And then we get this quote from the Attorney General: "The arrests have dealt "a severe blow to a dangerous organization that today stands accused of conspiring to levy war against the United States," Attorney General Eric Holder said."

    Hmmm...sounds a bit fishy to me. :-k Sounds like to me their trying to send a message to militia groups.
     
  13. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    I hate to rain on several good conspiracies but members of the other miltias in the area are amongst those who spoke out against these heros of the revolution. as well as spoken of how they are regarded less than fondly. check aps for a description bt the leader of the michigan militia as well as links to interviews with with folfks who actually knew and trained with the folks involved.
    or continue with the regularly scheduled conspiracy,
     
  14. inherentical

    inherentical Member

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    Title 18, United States Code, Section 2332a(c)(2), including any destructive device defined in Title 18, United States Code, Section 921.

    But that's just a wild guess.
     
  15. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    I believe I'll hold off on having an opinion on these guys. Maybe they're innocent, maybe not. One thing for sure is that I'd look foolish acting like I knew one way or the other based on the little information available.
     
  16. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    I too was troubled by the initial way it was reported yesterday. The media made it sound like these guys were just running around in the woods shooting guns, wearing camo, playing militia and were arrested merely for their "scary" appearance. I immediately began to feel bad for the guys and blame the government.

    But as the story unfolds, it appears that it is not about a citizen militia or a religious group falling victim to government persecution (lord knows it has happened before). These guys seem to be a run of the mill, home-grown terrorist organization... or a would-be coup. I am still reluctant to pass any further judgments before the story opens up more. But it appears that this time, maybe the government did their job.
     
  17. Shung

    Shung Member

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    this could have unintended consequences, right ?
     
  18. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    I doubt it.
     
  19. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    From reading the indictment, there's really no question about guilt here - these clowns were planning on some major mayhem. Not one single High Roader should "reserve judgement" or pretend that there's a possibility these are innocent angels. They were planning to kill cops. And then set off bombs at those cops' funerals, and then kill their families. These animals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    As to the timing, the FBI picked up word that they were planning a first action in April, so time was running out to keep building the case. It was time to go with the evidence already in hand before someone got killed.

    Some of the best reporting on this story you'll find is at the Detroit Free Press:

    And yes, other militias in Michigan didn't want anything to do with this band of psychos:

    The Hutareen reached out to the SMVM and asked if they could hide out on their property once the raids started, and the SMVM and others refused. These guys were not well regarded in the local militia community. There's no RKBA issue here because this isn't about firearms - or even militias - it's about religious crazies of our own who were taking pages out of the al Qaeda playbook and adopting those strategies; bombing funerals, using IEDs, and we all know what the next step is - see the Moscow subway attacks for examples.

    I congratulate our brave men and women of law enforcement for being on the ball and wrapping this up before tragedy struck.
     
  20. iScream

    iScream Member

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    I believe the argument is that non-citizens do not have the same rights as US citizens. I suspect you know that but it doesn't support your bashing of conservatives so you need to twist it.
     
  21. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    I looked at some of the earlier threads this AM and as a result I did two things. One I decided to wait for more facts to emerge before drawing any significant conclusions and Two I looked up the web site for the Hutaree, which is below...

    http://hutaree.com/

    Now this is their website where they can say what they want about their own ideas. The site is long on running around the woods with guns with rock music playing in the background but it appears to me to be short on politics and whatever their religious views are. For some reason they are vague on the specifics of the latter. They are not a gun club. Nor are they a bible study group. They are a political/religious group who are vague on what their agenda is but upfront on the guns/ end of times/ "evil jew" war stuff...not a good combination in my experience. Tells me they have no confidence that their ideas can win people over but they may be ready to go to the guns to impose those ideas on others.

    Anyways folks are innocent till proven guilty and I'll wait for more information to emerge. Remember an indictment is just the government's side of the case.

    tipoc
     
  22. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    I'm just glad it was stopped before it began.
     
  23. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    It would appear that most would rather sound bites from LEO's reported by Gannet news decide rather than a jury.
     
  24. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    If indictment = guilt, then the Duke lacross team would all be doing five to ten in a North Carolina prison.

    They might be guilty of what they're charged with. They might not.

    Apparently you see no need for the formality of a trial.
     
  25. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    You can make and register a destructive device. I don't think you can register your WMD...........
     
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