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weird primer strikes

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Striker Fired, Dec 24, 2011.

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  1. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    I just fired my first couple 40Super rounds out of a 1911/Storm Lake barrel that I just completed the fitting on.I have a 24lb recoil spring and the firing pin spring is a sronger than factory, but I can't find my notes on what poundage.I do have a small radious FPS in it,and a19lb hammer spring.
    The primer strikes were normal on the 45ACP loads, and the rounds I fired today are Double Tap 200gr FMJ and they are pretty stiff,but recoil wasn't bad at all(I think my 357Sig in my XDM are about equal),I was surprized by this,The brass flew about 10 feet behind and to the right.Overall it ran fine,I hit a 6inch gong standing and nervous(not really trying hard to aim good and trying to watch where the brass flew) with all three shots at 20yrds.
    The primers have no dimple,and the firing pin you can see actually was digging into the primer and scraping the plating off.What changes need to be made to solve this,it will probably break the firing pin or pierce a primer eventually.
    When I reload them I'm going to use rifle primers(I don't know if DT used them or not in these)and I am getting Starline brass with the small primers to stop primer flow(which is what I think is happening here)
     

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  2. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    To me they look like the loads are under pressured. A lot of rounding at the primer edges. What load are you running, powder charge, and are the primers seated sub level at least .002".
     
  3. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    They are Double Tap 200gr fmj,Factory loads.Not reloads. The pic doesn't show very well, but the primers are flat across,no strike dimple)
    The primers don't look flattened out,the outer radius didn't change from before being fired,but the center looks like the fire pin strike was either pushed back out from pressure or never was pushed in and the firing pin just hit the primer hard and was scraped along the surface as the slide and barrel unlocked.
    One other thing is that on the final shot,the slide was locked back and the empty was still being held in place by the extractor,That sounds like too strong of a recoil spring, but the first cases flew well back, so the drag on the empty mag slowed the slide down enough to not eject the last empty.
    I'm thinking stronger hammer spring,stronger fireing pin spring and weaker recoil spring.(I'm thinking 1lb difference for each spring)
     
  4. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    TAP is high pressure ammo & crimped primers. The striker print was probably ironed out.
     
  5. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    40 Super

    The primer flowed back into the firing pin hole. Then "primer wipe" took place. This is where a ring around the firing-pin impact bulges out far enough to get squished or sheared off flat by the breech-face as the pistol goes through its unlocking process, leaving an area that looks like a razor was used to slice off part of the primer. Kahr> "Primer wipe" is a teardrop-shaped firing pin impression, accompanied by a drag mark (scratch or gouge) following the "point" of the teardrop and leading away from the primer, sometimes into the brass. This is because the firing pin does not fully retract after the round has fired and the slide is traveling back during ejection, causing the case to drag across the firing pin as it is thrown clear. It is not in any way harmful, except sometimes to the case if the primer pocket edge is gouged. Kahr will tell you it is a normal condition for their pistols, even saying so in the owner's manual. The 1911 has an INERTIA firing pin. A type of firing-pin in which the forward movement is restrained until it receives the energy from a hammer blow. It is slightly recessed in the breech face before being struck by the hammer and is shorter in length than the housing in which it is contained. Upon hammer impact, it flies forward using only its own kinetic energy to fire the primer. The pin would retract into the housing after firing the primer. This lets the primer flow into the hole. Then its wiped. Since the firearm runs ok, i would not make any changes till you start reloading for it. This is my Guess, as i do not own one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  6. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  7. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I get some primer smearing on my "hot" .38 Super loads. The regular pressure loads in the same gun do not do it.

    Hard to see in the pics, but that is what it looks like.
     
  8. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    Yep ,both you guys nailed it.I had a feeling that it was primer flow because that is a common issue with this round,hence why Starline makes its new brass using small primers,plus I plan on using rifle primers.AT first I was worried about possibly damaging the gun,but as you guys are describing it, that is going to be the way it is as long as I use this brass.

    I wonder if they are using large rifle primers or pistol primers in these.I'm going to have to find out if my gun will fire the rifle primers.

    For now I pulled 20 bullets out .02 to see if it lessens the amount of flow.

    I can't wait to get to the range to see how good she shoots at 50yrds.
    The only other thing I was worried about is if the gun is unlocking to quick and maybe I need a longer link.But that is a dangerous game.
    Thanks for the info SF

    243winxb= that thread says it all,it is to slow down the unlock action,among other side effects.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  9. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I am getting primer flow from 7.7 to 8.2 Grs of powder. That is the range I have tried. I do not think changing the OAL is going to do it, but I could be wrong. I put an EGW FPS on a SA 1911, and it seems to help perceived recoil and muzzle flip. I have been intending to install one on my SA .38 Super to see if it helps with the primer flow, but have not gotten around to it.
     
  10. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    The FPS won't do anything for primer flow,but it definately helped on felt recoil. I don't know if the longer oal will help much either,but it won't hurt either and there is plenty of room in the chamber for the longer oal,just not the mags.
     
  11. Drail

    Drail Member

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    Post 5 hit it. I think you're on the edge of the envelope there.
     
  12. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    It will delay the barrel unlocking just a microsecond or so, which might help.

    I load the Zeros at 1.270 to 1.275. I just loaded some Berrys 124 Gr HBRN bullets to 1.280 max (Some were a couple thou shorter), so I am at max already, although the mags would take a few thou longer round.

    A new firing pin spring, or even an extra power firing pin spring might help.
     
  13. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    Have you ever tried using rifle primers? I haven't but I'm going to try it for mine(the developer of this round did that),maybe thet would work for your also.I"ll have experiment to make sure my gun fires them though.The thicker cup is rated for the higher pressure,but tit takes away one signal of aproaching the max limit.
     
  14. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Switch to magnum small rifle primers, and the issue will probably go away.
     
  15. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I get primer wipe from most of my newer auto loader's, regardless if it's factory or reloads being run through them. Right off the top of my head I have 2 XD's one an M grade in .40, a Taurus 24/7 in .40, 3 Taurus sub compacts in .40 the melemium I think, a Taurus PT-111 in 9mm, Beretta 92 FS in 9mm, that all primer wipe no matter what gets put through them. My G17 doesn't do it and a few other older auto's that don't. I have wondered why, but never concerned myself with it being it doesn't cause any problems or damage the brass at all.

    I really don't think you should concern yourself with it, unless your experiencing problems with over all normal function. The only thing I did notice was the other primer characteristics I mentioned above. But since you said you were using factory ammo. I would personally question that fact first.
     
  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I am using Winny small rifle primers. I guess I could try some CCI # 41's. I have 2K. The only Mag small rifle primers I have are Federal.

    I do not get primer swipe in anything else, just this hot load. One should not be getting primer swipe in guns using standard loads.
     
  17. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Primer Wipe

    The primer flowing back into the firing pin hole is not something i ever want to see on any of my firearms. Way to much pressure for me. Normal primer wipe should look like the brass on the right in this photo, i would guess?? The firing pin has made contact in more than one place. PrimerWipe.jpg
     
  18. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    I have 2 xdms(40 &45) ,2 Beretta 96's, + 357Sig barrel for one Beretts and the XDM40. None of them have ever had primer flow/smear , even when I was approaching max loads.

    As 243winxb's photo shows, the right case is normal "flow" for the .40 or .357Sig. What Walkalong and I are experiencing is quite a bit more advanced,mine is to the point that there is no dimple in the primer anymore,its been "blown" back out. These are on cartridges that are 38,000 PSI for the .40 Super and 36,500 for the 38 Super. That is near the max pressure limit of pistol primers.
     
  19. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I dropped to 7.7 with the Berrys 124 Gr HBRN (WSR Primer) and got no primer swipe at 54 degrees. 1311 Avg FPS. We'll see when it is 99 degrees here what it does. Shot superbly by the way.

    This is over standard Vihtavuori .38 Super data for a 124/5 JHP, much less a plated bullet, but me and my gun are willing to run it. It was set up for hot .38 Super. It is a long retired race gun.

    I will repeat what I posted. Normal loads in normal guns should not be showing primer swipe from excess pressure when the action unlocks.

    Like these .400 Corbon cases. Oops. Yes, I did that. :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    Yep, thats what mine looked like.I found a good use for 45ACP brass with the small primers, Form into 400 Cor Bon. I have 1000 Blazer spp that I have formed into the CorBon. They are still looking like the left case in the above pic. They were Federal mag primers though, my next batch are going to be CCI. I have to get some rifle primers.

    Do you put a canelure in your bullets? I don't right now, but now that I reload 357Sig , 400 CorBon, and 40 Super, they all benefit from a canelure groove . I noticed the two 40's don't crimp and hold as tight as the Sig does so I'm a little concerned about that ,so, I might make me a tool. I already have an old power screwdriver that I can rig the motor and gear reducer to the roller, an have me a power unit. Hmmmm.
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Nope, just lightly roll crimp. Reloader Fred does. He has a tool to do that. I do not. I was not trying to hot rod the .400 Corbon. I just got careless and bumped the charge up too much. I'll PM the velocity.
     
  22. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    How did they group? Keyholing? fragment?
     
  23. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Only shot three. (ES=3.. SD=1) They hit close together and cut round holes. I pulled the rest with pliers. I had loaded 10 IIRC.
     
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