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Welcome to Felony Arrest 101

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by TheeBadOne, Dec 19, 2003.

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  1. TheeBadOne

    TheeBadOne Member

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    Nemo sine vitio est
    Fleeing Suspect Nabbed In Class

    MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, Wash. -- An armed man who eluded police fled into a classroom at an elementary school before police pepper-sprayed him, tackled him and hauled him off in front of dozens of children.

    "The cop came and jumped up in the air and tackled him down and he's like, 'Put your hands behind your back,'" said Chantel LaPorte, a student at Mountlake Terrace Elementary School.

    After the man was arrested, police discovered he had a loaded handgun and a box of ammunition.

    Several of the students had to go to the hospital because they breathed the pepper spray.

    The suspect, a 30-year-old Brier resident, was booked into the Snohomish County Jail for felony outstanding warrants and for charges of illegal possession of a firearm and eluding a police officer.

    http://www.kirotv.com/education/2715228/detail.html
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    :what:
     
  2. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh come on..it was OC not anthrax...Pretty much overkill if you ask me.

    What about being in possession of a firearm within 1000 feet of a school? They have to charge him with that. It's such an important law that all the states were encouraged to re-pass it after the U.S. Supreme Court declared the Federal version unconstitutional. :rolleyes:

    Jeff
     
  3. fiVe

    fiVe Member

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    Little Johnny gets home, and his mother asks, "So how was school today?".......
     
  4. Balog

    Balog Member

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    Jeff White: I suppose that would depend on how much they breathed and if they had some sort of reaction to it. Give an asthmatic a good faceful of extra-strenght spray and I could see having to take em to the hospital.
     
  5. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Balog,

    It doesn't sound like anyone got a facefull (except for the suspect :D). I've used OC numerous times and been in the middle of a fight where another officer used it numerous times. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but from what I can say from experience, secondary exposure in that type of setting shouldn't require anyone, even an asthmatic to go to the hospital.

    It can seem overpowering though. A couple years ago during an active shooter course, an officer from another department had an OC ND on the floor below the one we were on, and you could certainly tell it happened. In fact we all started looking at each other to see if one of us had the ND. But no one had to be hospitalized.

    Some nice attorney will take this story and use it to make his case that OC is excessive force. I'd hate to see that happen.

    Jeff
     
  6. pax

    pax Member

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    Jeff,

    A child's body isn't simply a smaller version of an adult's body. They often metabolize drugs differently than adults do -- for instance, kids often respond to sleepy-making drugs with a paradoxical burst of energy, or to stimulants by calming down.

    I'm not saying that's the case with OC, but it seems likely there aren't a lot of kid-specific studies about the stuff. So if a kid's been exposed and appears to be reacting badly, it'd certainly be better to err on the side of caution, and get a med check.

    Apart from that, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to expect children to simply suck it up and shrug it off, the way adult police officers manage to do. You folks had to go through OC training before you were able to do that. Y'know?

    pax
     
  7. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Member

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    That is probably why he ran into the elementary school. While being chased he stopped and thought, "Hmmm... where should I run to get away. There is that school, but there's a federal law against me taking my gun... oh wait... no, the courts said it's cool." So off he went to flee to the school. Criminals are so rational and law-abiding. :eek:
     
  8. Bravo11

    Bravo11 Member

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    If it was my kid I would want them checked out. Kids have allergic reactions to stuff that adults have grown out of.
    If you work for the school you better take care of my kids while they are in your charge.
     
  9. HogRider

    HogRider Member

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    "The cop came and jumped up in the air and tackled him down and he's like , 'Put your hands behind your back,'" said Chantel LaPorte, a student at Mountlake Terrace Elementary School

    Whoa, dude did ya see that, it's like that dude got owned! Cool.


    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Russ

    Russ Member

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    Even if those kids didn't develop a booger from the incident, any half way intelligent school official would have sent them to the hospital to be checked out so as not to be sued. They will probably get sued anyway just so some sleazy out of work lawyer can extort some fees.
     
  11. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "Little Johnny gets home, and his mother asks, "So how was school today?"......." To which, Johnny replies, "Spicy, mom."
    Pepper spray is primarily made from cayenne pepper. Allergies are nutty things and people can be allergic to some odd stuff. Know a guy allergic to basil. No pizza for him. I also knew a guy who died from ingesting peanut oil on a pizza. He died in the back of a taxi going to the hospital. Just a young buck too. Better to check the yard apes out than have to charge the flatfoot with manslaughter
     
  12. Quartus

    Quartus Member

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    Give a severe asthmatic a WHIFF of ANY strength pepper spray and you might be taking a BODY to the hospital. It depends on the individual.


    Given today's lawsuit happy, hyper-cautious environment, I'm not at all surprised that some students were checked at a hospital.
     
  13. dinosaur

    dinosaur Member

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    Ooh, I dunno. An ex partner of mine, aka Dumb Donald, sprayed a guy with mace while a bunch of us were wrestling with him. Sent a few of us to the hospital. :banghead:

    It`s a CYA situation for the school. Still, some parent will sue the police, the school and anyone else with a deep pocket.:rolleyes:
     
  14. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    CYA for the school or not...it can only be a bad thing unless someone was actually having a bad reaction.

    OC is one of the most effective tools we have. If it becomes common practice to take everyone whos's exposed to it to the hospital to be checked out, we soon won't have it. Administrators who fear lawsuits will write overly restrictive policies on it's use.

    This mindset can also spread over onto those private citizens who use OC for self defense. You may be sued for negligence for using it or may be required to provide aid to your assailant. Your anti-self defense legislator may right legislation outlawing it's possession and use by private citizens because it's so dangerous.

    Naturally, we should provide medical assistance to anyone who requires it, but if we make medical checks routine after exposure we'll eventually see the use of OC restricted.

    Jeff
     
  15. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    Jeff, you just don't seem to get it. These were not criminals that were exposed to OC. These were children. Allergies can be deadly. A couple of years ago, a 13 year old girl in Louiseville ate a piece of candy with walnuts in it. She went into anafalactic (?) shock and was dead before she reached the hospital. I think the point people are trying to make is that you can't treat children like adult criminals and expect the to react the same way. Have a nice holiday season.
     
  16. trimation

    trimation member

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    I have been sprayed with OC before and I can tell you, as I'm sure some others here can, that it isn't a fun thing.

    This is a little off topic but funny to me. My mother works in a juvenille detention facility and they all carry OC there. I was there visiting her the other day and I was speaking to some of the other employees about how effective pepper spray is and how painful it is. These guys were telling me, "oh it's not that bad", and "it doesn't really hurt at all", and "all you have to do is wash it off with a little water".

    Why do people have to act so macho about it. IT HURTS LIKE HELL. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

    Trimation
     
  17. Balog

    Balog Member

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    I don't want to see OC restricted for anyone. But taking kids to the hospital as a precaution seems unlikely to bring this about.
     
  18. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    KY Larry,

    I have no problem with giving medical treatment to anyone who needs it. I do have a problem with establishing a precedent that anyone who is exposd to it needs to be checked out by medical personnel. OC is used in juvenile detention facilities.

    If the kids were actually having a reaction to it, by all means rush them to the hospitial. If you think you need to take them to the hospital because they were exposed, then IMHO, you're over-reacting.

    I understand all about allergies. It's our department policy to get medical treatment for anyone who needs it or appears to.

    Maybe I don't have enough information to really judge what happened. In my minds eye, I see the school administration taking these kids to the ER to avoid the potential for a lawsuit. If so, that's fine for school, but bad for the police. Especially if the school district decides the PD should pay for the ER visits.

    This kind of stuff can get real sticky. Especially when there are medical bills to pay. I had a prisoner fake a heart attack at the jail one night years ago. Called an ambulance took him to the ER, the usual bills were generated. The city and county fought for a couple years over who had to pay the bill. The county's out was that he wasn't through the sally port yet. The city maintained that he was on the jail property when it happened.

    I can really see the officers being forbidden to use OC near children or at the school if the PD gets stuck with the bill. Then you have the attorneys who will use this as a reason to prove that the evil police used a toxic substance on their poor out of control client and he should be entitled to be released from jail and awarded millions from your tax money because the agency was negligent enough to issue OC to it's officers.

    Jeff
     
  19. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    Jeff, I agree we don't have enough info about this situation. I'm sure if I was a LEO, my views would be very different on a lot of things. I admire LEO's for walking a very fine line between personal and public safety. I know I couldn't do it. My hat is off to you Sir.
     
  20. Intune

    Intune Member

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    And if the guy turned around and shot the cop it would be a good thing that I was there to pick up my kid because I would reach around to my holster and... be sucking wind because only cops & bad guys can have guns at my kid's school. Bah! :fire:
     
  21. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    i'd bet a shiny nickel that it was the decision of the school to send some kids to the hospital, a CYA move. you know that a parent of a kid who suffered ill effects from 2nd hand contact with OC would sue the pants off the school.

    there was a recent situation up here where police broke up a fight in a school by using OC. parents werent thrilled.
     
  22. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I'll bet he'll get some really serious probation this time!
     
  23. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    So what actual violent crimes did he commit?
     
  24. AZLibertarian

    AZLibertarian Member

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    Jeff White,
    You probably have a point about the unintended consequences of over-sensitivity of some officials to CYA, especially when dealing with otherwise healthy children. That being said, if I was the principal here, I think I'd have as many kids checked out who might have, even remotely, caught some of the OC here. That the lawsuit that might come down out of this would be stupid, doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.

    However, all this being said, I do think that kids these days are somewhat softer than when I was raised. I can't even remember how many scraped knees, sprained fingers, cuts, bruises, etc. I had as a kid. Check out the "BB Gun Wars" thread. Kids today ride their bikes wearing helmets, skate with kneeguards...well, you get the idea. Being a principal at a school today, surrounded by whiney kids, I'd send them to be checked out too.
     
  25. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    There's something in his records to make it illegal possession of a firearm.

    But, for starters, let's have eluding--in the State of WA, that's one felony. Then, we can smack the dork with obstruction; if he pushed one of the officers, then it's assault 3, another felony; possession of a firearm on school property, a gross misdemeanor.

    Hopefully, this guy won't plead out on this one. But then again, here in latte land, anything is possible.
     
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