Well, Obama just laid it out

[Zoogster]

There is millions of ARs in the country. Millions of AKs.
Millions of common semi-auto pistols (used in most of the mass shootings) with standard capacity magazines.

The number of magazines sold is astonishing. There is so many magazines that if people were limited to buying pre-ban like before there would be a market so saturated with magazines that anyone could buy them years into the future relatively cheaply once panic subsided.


Now let us consider that mass shooters often do not plan to survive. They don't plan to pay back debt if they are not planning to live, and just about anyone can get loans or credit for thousands.
That means decades into the future anyone with ill intent that desired to have the guns or magazines restricted by legislation could afford them more easily than the average person that actually has to deal with a long term budget and plans to have to live and deal with thier financial decisions.



So availability would in no way change for those with ill intent who typically planned well in advance before attacks. They might just have to spend a little more or use credit they don't plan to pay back.


While I don't support any restrictions, a new ban that allowed transfers of anything owned prior to its implementation would be far more meaningless than the old AWB was, because the millions available are so much greater. What was once rare is now one of the most common firearms, and many people that own them have a good number of magazines.

It would have to at a minimum prevent transfers of items already owned to have any meaning.


If an AWB was allowed to pass I certainly see that as a strong possibility, either initially, or some years into it when a shooter uses some pre-ban items purchased after the ban and antis then want to 'close the Assault Weapon loophole.'


If prohibition on transfers of previously owned firearms and magazines was to happen, those items legally held would become financially worthless. Of no monetary value beyond what exempt police would pay.
This is the case in California where even passing registered assault weapons to heirs in the state is not allowed. Thier legality ends when the owner dies or loses the ability to own firearms, and they must leave the state or go to law enforcement.
If that was at a national level there wouldn't be other states to sell them to, and ITAR won't let you ship them out. So the monetary value becomes nothing.


Something to keep in mind while fighting the proposed legislation.

 

[481]

Thanks to Frank Ettin and Sam1911 for posts 53, 64, and 65- they offer an enlightening perspective.

 

[michaelbsc]

Looks like some merging happened.

The only thing he said about mental health during this conference was, "We need to make access to mental health care at least as accessible as guns."

Which is great, but yeah... that sure wasn't the foundation of his little speech.

And that's what *WE* need to be demanding. We, as the responsible gun owners, rely on the mental healthcare system to provide the tools and mechanisms that screen and identify the Gifford shooter, the Aurora shooter, and last week's shooter. And that system is failing. And we need to be concerned about it.

Frank nailed it. It wouldn't matter who was President at this point. The public outcry and reaction to this event is unprecedented. This goes far beyond any politicians and their machinations. The events of the next few weeks and months will determine whether it stays that way.

Exactly the point I was making over and over last night. This time is different. And like it or lump it, this needs to become our banner. I do not care that "this isn't our problem." Yes it is our problem. We have to become the drivers to solve the mental health problems so that the mental health problems don't become pushed off to us as a gun control solution. Regardless of whether it ought to be our problem or not, it's our problem now.

To take that a step further, we the gun owners need to contact our representatives and politely, calmly, and logically refute the mainstream media and the knee jerk reation of a public that blindly believes the MSM. The more of us that the reps hear from, the more they can see that public opinion is not unified in its calls for more gun control. The loud left is making its case, we need to make ours as well...but without all the name calling and fearmongering that the liberals rely on.

A lot of people have been saying we need to remind them of their "Constitutional Duty to defend our Rights" or we'll throw them out at the next election. OK, try that if you want. But it's going in the trash bin and check off as another rant from an idiot letter.

We need to shift conversation to mental health, not gun control.

The statements we need to be making to them need to go something like:

Dear Senator/Representative Q,

I am both saddened and alarmed at the recent events in the Great State of Connecticut. As you well know there is significant public debate circulating both at dinner tables and in public forums about how we as a nation need to respond.

A connecting thread in the most gruesome and tragic incidents in the past few years is that they did not involve criminal minds, but rather mentally disturbed minds who have been failed by our nations inadequate delivery of mental health services.

As a responsible and law abiding gun owner in your State/District, I have usually felt secure that the checks in place for controlling retail sales of guns - which are perfectly safe in responsible hands, but dangerous in incompetent hands - were adequate. It is frightening to me to discover that one of these systems, the nations mental healthcare system, is less adequate than perceived, as the evidence bears out.

As my elected official I am asking you, for myself and for all responsible gun owners, to spare no effort at seeking remedies to making this facet of our safety checks fully functional and adequate to its purpose. We, as gun owners, must depend upon the mental healthcare delivery system as a key ingredient to gun safety as much as we do criminal background checks and proper training at gun ranges. All of those components are necessary legs of the stool.

===========


Try something like this. Or just rant about "protect my second amendment rights or I'll vote against you."

But I'm telling you right now, the carrot of the small excise tax on retail sales earmarked for mental health will go a long ways toward making us look like reasonable participants in the discussion.

Michael - Your local maladjusted nonconforming minority

 

[Deanimator]

I thought Obama was serious about gun control until I found out that he'd put Biden in charge.

He might as well have put Paris Hilton in charge of a manned mission to Mars.

Who knows, maybe by the time Joe's through, we'll all be REQUIRED to own Thompson Submachineguns.

 

[BBQLS1]

I thought Obama was serious about gun control until I found out that he'd put Biden in charge.

He might as well have put Paris Hilton in charge of a manned mission to Mars.

Who knows, maybe by the time Joe's through, we'll all be REQUIRED to own Thompson Submachineguns.

Biden was in large part responsible for the passing of the Clinton era gun ban.

 

[Logan5579]

We need to shift conversation to mental health, not gun control.

The statements we need to be making to them need to go something like:

Dear Senator/Representative Q,

I am both saddened and alarmed at the recent events in the Great State of Connecticut. As you well know there is significant public debate circulating both at dinner tables and in public forums about how we as a nation need to respond.

A connecting thread in the most gruesome and tragic incidents in the past few years is that they did not involve criminal minds, but rather mentally disturbed minds who have been failed by our nations inadequate delivery of mental health services.

As a responsible and law abiding gun owner in your State/District, I have usually felt secure that the checks in place for controlling retail sales of guns - which are perfectly safe in responsible hands, but dangerous in incompetent hands - were adequate. It is frightening to me to discover that one of these systems, the nations mental healthcare system, is less adequate than perceived, as the evidence bears out.

As my elected official I am asking you, for myself and for all responsible gun owners, to spare no effort at seeking remedies to making this facet of our safety checks fully functional and adequate to its purpose. We, as gun owners, must depend upon the mental healthcare delivery system as a key ingredient to gun safety as much as we do criminal background checks and proper training at gun ranges. All of those components are necessary legs of the stool.

I agree, and your letter is very similar in content to the emails I have sent to my representatives. We can't just spout the "people kill people...etc", we have to be intelligent participants in the conversation because the MSM is already painting us as extremists... We have to show them that we aren't. Of course the media won't listen, their mind is made up, but the persons who don't own firearms and want them banned as a knee jerk fear reaction can be shown that we aren't the bloodthirst lunatics the media makes us out to be.

 

[Trent]

Man you guys are making me depressed.

Chin up.

We'll win one way or another.

 

[Deanimator]

Biden was in large part responsible for the passing of the Clinton era gun ban.

He could probably remember his own name back then...

 

[rem44m]

I am both saddened and alarmed at the recent events in the Great State of Connecticut. As you well know there is significant public debate circulating both at dinner tables and in public forums about how we as a nation need to respond.

A connecting thread in the most gruesome and tragic incidents in the past few years is that they did not involve criminal minds, but rather mentally disturbed minds who have been failed by our nations inadequate delivery of mental health services.

As a responsible and law abiding gun owner in your State/District, I have usually felt secure that the checks in place for controlling retail sales of guns - which are perfectly safe in responsible hands, but dangerous in incompetent hands - were adequate. It is frightening to me to discover that one of these systems, the nations mental healthcare system, is less adequate than perceived, as the evidence bears out.

As my elected official I am asking you, for myself and for all responsible gun owners, to spare no effort at seeking remedies to making this facet of our safety checks fully functional and adequate to its purpose. We, as gun owners, must depend upon the mental healthcare delivery system as a key ingredient to gun safety as much as we do criminal background checks and proper training at gun ranges. All of those components are necessary legs of the stool.

I have sent this and similar letters to my elected officials.

I have felt strongly about the mental health side of things for quite sometime. I sincerely hope that those who are in need, get help because of all this.

 

[mister_murphy]

I think the cat is out of the bag so to speak on many folks owning standard capacity mags, and semi auto Ar-15's and other similar rifles as well.

The Hyatt Gun Shop in Charlotte, North Carolina, racked up more than $1 million in sales yesterday for the best single-day performance since the store opened in 1959, according to Justin Anderson, director of online sales. At the top of shoppers’ lists was the Bushmaster AR-15, the model of rifle used at Newtown that sells for as much as $4,000 and had almost sold out, he said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-at-wal-mart-as-magazine-prices-surge-on.html

$1 million is a ton of sales in a single day, and its been going strong since Obama was elected first, and actually was strong since the ban ended in 04. Its going to be impossible to put the "genie back in the bottle" now, and the more I think on it, the more that I feel that putting more restrictions will only create a black market for certain firearms, mags, etc. That, in my mind will make firearm owners look even worse.

If we are going to survive this we need to really work on, and move forward trying to find a way to improve mental health care, and improve it long term.

Edit to add:

Folks who are spending this type of money, say $1000 for a rifle, or thereabouts, tend to usually be politically active in some form, either at least voting, or also eith contributing money or time to politcal campaigns

 

[Hollowdweller]

I may be in the minority here but I don't think much of anything has a chance of passing.

The gun control of the 90's depended on some republicans and I think there will be NO republicans this time arond.

I can't imagine any blue dog rural Democrat voting for an AWB either. I have reason to believe for instance that Sen's Warner and Manchins offices are being bombarded right now by angry constituents and I don't know about Warner, but Manchin is already walking it back.

Republicans are laying low hoping for a replay of what happened after 94.

 

[michaelbsc]

Man you guys are making me depressed.

Chin up.

We'll win one way or another.

We might win, but not with the tired old strategies of the past.

They led us from one compromise to another.

We cannot compromise any more. This has to be the last stand, and we have to be clear and rational.


For two nights everyone's been accusing me of being a troll because I think we should get ahead of the left instead of hunker down and see what we can compromise. Fiddlesticks.

Like I said in some other posts, gun owners may not be a numerical majority, but the hard antis are a very small minority. If we aren't shrill, and can ally with much of the uncommitted mainstream, we can command a superior audience with Congress despite the media. Congress cares about votes. Nothing else.

If we can get a serious lobbying effort with the National Institute of Mental Health, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychiatric Nurses Association, etc. to get them aware that gun owners are hard core serious about gun safety, and we're willing to twist the arms of Congress as well as get LaPierre to twist the arms of congress to fund research and services then we'll become friends of the medical community instead of pariah in the medical community.


Here's the carrot excise tax I was talking about. Now, anyone who is so foolish as to think that this two paragraph "White House petition" is anything more an a strawman object to use a talking point is extremely naive. No legislator is going to pass this "just like Michael wrote it." But the idea is to show that we get it that we're concerned about the problem. And they're going to cram it down our throats any way, so lets make it something we control.


http://wh.gov/nTna

Here's some more information about this petition:



$2 Federal Excise on Handguns and Long Guns earmarked for Mental
Health Services


Recent shootings have focused national attention on gun violence. The
dramatic events in Newton, CT involved a young male. The Aurora, CO event
involved a young male. The Tucson, AZ event involved a young male. Others
were the same. And a connecting thread is that these young men were mentally
ill, which is not a condition they voluntarily chose. These are failures of
the nation's mental health system, not failures of gun control.

We should establish a $2 per handgun or long gun point of retail excise tax
earmarked for mental health services to improve the state of the
nation's capacity to identify and treat patients in need. These funds
should not be part of the general fund, and this excise tax funds the benefit
just like hunting licenses fund wildlife management.

 

[jon_in_wv]

once again the Republicans ans pro-gun Democrats have remained silent while the media, obama, and the rest of the antis gin up the propaganda machine. When are we going to elect some people who have the cajones to defend the second amendment. After the Virginia Tech shooting the ATF sent a report to congress calling to improve the mental health reporting requirements already in law. Its horribly enforced and they wanted it properly funded and enforced. Did Feinstein or Schumer act on that? Nope. Instead they tried to pass a bill that would prevent anyone who ever had any treatment whatsoever from ever owning a firearm including veterans with PTSD or people who were treated for depression 20 years ago.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I am REALLY trying to bite off smug comments to those who kept saying that Obama doesn't want to ban guns.

OMG me too.

 

[toivo]

I don't know how many of the people calling for a renewal of the AWB realize that Connecticut has an AWB, one that looks a lot like the '94-'04 one:

http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm

However, it doesn't look like they have the 10-round limit for magazine capacity. Maybe I'm missing something.

If they aren't completely clueless, I suspect they'll go for something stronger this time. That's a big "if" ...

 

[ACP]

to the OP, where is the source for your claims about what the president is proposing? Please link to it.

Because this is what is on the NY Times just a few hours ago: note the phrase "DID NOT OFFER ANY SPECIFICS"

"Mr. Obama, with Mr. Biden standing beside him, did not offer any specifics about the proposals. But he promised to confront the longstanding opposition in Congress that has previously blocked broad gun control measures."

 

[Derek Zeanah]

The source was the press conference. Typed it up after he said it. I'm sure you can find it online somewhere.

Expect Biden + the VPC folks to come back in a few days. From the strength and unity we're seeing on this one, it looks like they've have this planned and are acting from a script.

I wish we were more prepared.

 

[Bubba613]

I may be in the minority here but I don't think much of anything has a chance of passing.

The gun control of the 90's depended on some republicans and I think there will be NO republicans this time arond.

I can't imagine any blue dog rural Democrat voting for an AWB either. I have reason to believe for instance that Sen's Warner and Manchins offices are being bombarded right now by angry constituents and I don't know about Warner, but Manchin is already walking it back.

Hello, Reason.

The longer it drags on, the less chance they have of anything passing. Once the incident gets knocked off the front pages people will not be pushing for gun control.
Obama has never led on any issue. He will not lead on this one. He will let Democrats in Congress come up with ideas and try to pass it and he will give speeches about it. Which is what he always does.
In the end they will compromise on something. Probably requiring background checks at "sanctioned events", i.e. gun shows. It will kill gunshows but so what? They will also tighten up the FFL system. Probably higher fees and fewer dealers with more inspections. Say good bye to $20 transfers. And a good thing too.
Anything else would require too much agreement among pro gun Dems and GOP.

 

[RX-178]

I don't know, I don't see taping Biden to form a committee is a 'we have a plan and let's put it into motion' move.

It seems a lot more like a 'I want to do nothing but I want to look like I'm doing something' move to me.

Now I'm not naive enough to think they're going to let the opportunity pass completely, but I'm willing to bet that what we're seeing is them clamming up until the NRA's press conference on Friday.

They're playing defense, folks.

 

[armysniper]

Used gun prices on AR 15's local sales message boards are through the roof. Just last week there were plenty of low end AR 15's for sale in the $700-800 range. Now there are hardly any listed and the ones that are have super high price tags.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Probably requiring background checks at "sanctioned events", i.e. gun shows. It will kill gunshows but so what?

Not entirely...

Colorado closed the gun show "loop hole" a few years ago.

In practical terms, the impact has been minimal. If you buy a gun from a non-dealer at the show, you fill out the standard BATF form and complete a back ground check using a common host dealer. No transactions can occur in the parking lot, etc. The law does NOT prevent sales and transfers outside of established gun show events.

I am sure this law has not prevented a single determined criminal from getting a gun, but Judging from crowded recent shows, this Colorado requirement has NOT negatively influenced the firearms buying experience.

Of course, the devil is in the details. You and I probably define a "gun show" as an advertised event occurring in large public venue. The new progressive definition would probably include two citizens in a basement.

 

[lionking]

I know many here are most concerned with a potential ban or restrictions, so am I. However whether a ban becomes law or not we must take the lead at pushing forward issues to address things like mental health to insure the best that can be that people unstable don't have the ability to act out in such ways.

A gun man going into a school is intolerable like this. Gun owners or not, gun enthusiasts or not, we are all people with loved ones and nobody wants this to continue happening. One can't 100% guarantee it no matter how much security or laws or health availability there is, but we all have a vested interest in preventing this.

I hope even if a ban doesn't see the light of day we don't become complacent and just forget about this.

 

[Pukindog12]

Exactly. The only real opponent Obama had this election was Romney, and Romney signed an AWB in his state. We are going through something big.

I fear also that we are going through something big. But I sure as hell hope I am wrong.

 

[NCJT]

time to tie our boots tight

my fellow red blooded americans. it is time to stand up and fight for our rights. this is the last straw. and they are about to go too far. i am merely a hillbilly from the mountains of nc and i'm scared. i know i'm beating a dead horse, but i cant wrap my head around how ignorant anti gun liberals can be. they actually believe that gun control is the answer. it is not hard to see that it will only give criminals defenseless targets. teachers are among the most trusted people in america, so why not trust them with a gun to defend themselves and our children, instead of making them easy picking. train them up, and set forth guidelines and arm them that is the answer, along with more responsible armed citizens willing to intervene and save lives. here is an idea lets put a couple soldiers in each school to defend our children, isn't that part of what they do defend the country against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC, would that not be an effective alternative. i agree the carnage must stop. but banning or making gun laws tougher is not the answer. all of these mass shootings have occurred in places where the citizens were disarmed. nobody robs the guy with a glock sticker in the window of his truck because they know they will meet resistance. here in rural area i live the local crooks will tell you that they avoid the areas where they know that us "rednecks" are armed, in the local convenience store where i live the owner keeps a loaded shotgun in plain view behind the counter and in 50 years hes never been robbed, burglarized or had a problem with shoplifting, and just down the road is the same type store without the mentioned shotgun and is robbed and stolen from on a regular basis. i call this indisputable evidence, i know the dead horse, but we need to publicize these facts and demand that the anti gunners argue against them with facts. let publicize all of the lives saved by armed citizens. i am a tobacco user myself, but tobacco kills more than guns and no one is trying to ban tobacco. these granola head idiots are trying to legalize marijuana and ban guns. we have become a nation of media believing wussies. its time we all stood up. our government is not going to protect us we have to do something as citizens. now i dont know it to be a fact i cant keep up with politics as i am a working class man who is busy keeping up my family not collecting from our "support our lazy people" government, but i have heard from lots of people that romney won the popular vote, that our "electoral college and fair government" put that idiot back in. if that's not proof that we are no longer a democracy i don't know what is. now folks i don't know what to do. all of the things like writing letters to our crooked politicions i dont think is going to work. so maybe we can bounce around some ideas. what do we need to do to protect our rights? we need to fight and i'm not meaning violence by no means i mean how do we as average citizens get into the decision making process. it is obvious that voting no longer fair. i have found a place where you can sign petitions to the dumbama administration it is whitehouse.gov/petitions. so any other ideas. lets stand together, its what our nation was founded on.....
food for thought. is the president and other top politicians going to give up their armed security, no, so why should i not be allowed to defend myself and my family by being armed. what makes them so special.

 

[michaelbsc]

However whether a ban becomes law or not we must take the lead at pushing forward issues to address things like mental health to insure the best that can be that people unstable don't have the ability to act out in such ways.
[...]
One can't 100% guarantee it no matter how much security or laws or health availability there is, but we all have a vested interest in preventing this.

Thank God!

This is what I have been saying for days now. *WE MUST BECOME THE CHAMPIONS* for this action in our society.

And he has more than a couple hundred posts, so maybe lionking isn't a troll.

Bur what he said is exactly the same thing I have been saying. THIS HAS BECOME OUR ISSUE TO SOLVE.

Yes, we're going to do their work for them. Get past that. We cannot let this keep happening just because we didn't cause it.