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Well, Obama just laid it out

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Derek Zeanah, Dec 19, 2012.

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  1. ColdDayInHell

    ColdDayInHell Member

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    Almost putting us wayyy past the red zone and making everyone see how much of a police state we're in. I seriously hope this won't happen but the moonbats in my area are coming out of the woodwork. They are impossible! But so am I.
     
  2. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    .455_Hunter said:

    Well in California it certainly has an impact. The impact includes a few things. Let us start with price. What was once a free transfer between private parties now requires all the fees that buying the gun does. This is $35 in California for in state transfers.
    If it was a familiy member, neighbor, or someone else etc you would already see them and could have made the trade without going out of the way. Now you must both go in person to a local FFL, typically a gun shop.
    If you live in a more rural commute zone that can be some distance. You will probably spend a good $5 each way in gas to the nearest place, per person if you arrive in seperate vehicles.
    So you are up near $50 additional per private transfer for the buyer, and added gas expense for the seller as well now.
    That is just the financial cost.
    That is all because the 'gun show loophole' was closed, and it applies to all private transfers and is not specific to gun shows.

    There is also the time component, what was once a fast thing now results in addition to the original meeting to inspect or show interest in purchasing you must also go drive and spend time at the FFL to transfer. Thats more time out of the schedule, and requires a time when both people have some free time they are willing to make the trip.

    In addition to that it results in partial registration of all firearms. There is paperwork linking that gun to who did the transfer that is with the FFL.
    Many retail chain stores also have it in thier own private easy to browse or download databases. So a private entity has all your information electronically stored with your gun purchases long term. Just sitting there to be browsed, stolen, sold for marketing research, etc
    So its not just available to the government, but your purchases are registered with the private corporations and on file too.
    Well some people don't like all firearms registered for several reasons. One being because sometimes legislators decide to ban things. Not only does it make it easier, but emboldens them because of more presumed success if they already know who has what.

    Closing private transfers also means if someone is on record as having bought a gun they didn't sell it to someone else, because if they did then there would be yet another record of it. So it is easier to narrow down who has exactly what guns.
    4473 records are a lot more complete and a lot closer to registration without private transfers to make that data less reliable over time.
     
  3. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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    Our reasoning and the content of Constitution are just as sound after this as before it.

    They are using this tragic event to do what they always wanted to do. They ignore all the reasons why it's the wrong thing to do as well as the fact it has never worked in the past.

    I believe we need to fight harder than them to make sure Congress doesn't get the votes.
     
  4. Ben86

    Ben86 Member

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    With as many pro-gun decisions from the courts lately I find it hard to believe that Obama would think an outright ban would be even be perceived as legal. Rest assured he and the regime will not let this opportunity for more gun control go to waste, but I bet they will try something sneaky and insidious first.

    We really need to come together and make our voices heard. Let your elected officials know that you do not believe more gun laws are the answer to mass shootings. Such things as better security, a focus on mental health issues, and better parenting would do much more to protect people.
     
  5. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    The cry of every general who ever lived.
     
  6. lionking

    lionking Member

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    michaelbsc..

    no I am not troll. lol. I am a gun owner concerned like any other what has happened, what is happening, not just with the potential for restrictions on the 2nd amendment but also the misuse of firearms. Is not safety the first and constant thing we are instructed in on the use of firearms?

    I don't understand your comment that we may have to do their job for them though. We must do it for ourselves because like any American we do not want this happening again not just because it threatens the 2nd amendment rights by politicians after the fact but because we are people with friends and family also who find this behavior inexcusable.

    It is our responsibility as firearm owners, as Americans, as people with people we love also to lead this debate to useful and changing results to promote safe use of firearms.

    It is others on this forum that helped me realize the need to first responders to promote better mental health care and safety. It was this last incident that made me realize just how bad it needs to be improved.

    Some here have mentioned a dollar amount donation or tax per gun sale to go to mental health care, I am down for that.

    I am also of the belief that schools should have beefed security even armed staff but that should be the decision of local government and I don't think we should require , as in mandatory arming of teachers ( which many teachers would resist anyway) it should be voluntary.
     
  7. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    The 2nd amendment means a lot of things, but as the quote goes -

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    I pray we never know the reality of this.......
     
  8. gunguy0829

    gunguy0829 Member

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    So here is what I think we all need to do
    1) Support the NRA
    2) Write letters to congress stating we do not belive our gun rites need to be taken away. And by all means dont stop standing up for your rights.

    Obama seems to think that a majority of americans belive that he is right about gun control, I say we stop him in his tracks and show him 4 million Americans do not agree.

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

    -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
     
  9. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    The NRA will sell out.
     
  10. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    If they do...they lose their funding and cease to exist
     
  11. gunguy0829

    gunguy0829 Member

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    With or with out them we need to stand strong as gun owners, we don't need anyone but ourselves to make our point known.
     
  12. gunguy0829

    gunguy0829 Member

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    "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

    -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
     
  13. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Considering the progress of the last 20 years, the hyper-aggressive rhetoric they've been putting out for at least the last 10 -- and the fact that they're currently signing up 8 THOUSAND new members EACH DAY since the shooting, I'd say selling out is about the least likely course they'll take.

    They may go a little overboard up on the podium and alienate too many people...I can picture that, but settling or selling out seems a remote possibility.
     
  14. lionking

    lionking Member

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    What do we do about this? First we shouldn't go into rants about tyranny and refreshing the tree of liberty. The average American is seeing it as they can't even let their kid go to school without worrying some madman is going to murder them. Telling them that Obama is coming after their guns to bring tyranny isn't going to win their support it will probably turn them off since they know it isn't a call for a complete ban of all firearms.

    I suggest staying away from common sound bites and use calm responses directing the issue toward increased mental health capabilities.

    The anti's are sure to look for pro gun people to put on their shows who will only respond with "guns don't kill people, people do". And while in essence that is true it isn't going to help win over people they are going to see it as a simpleton response. I saw it happen during the Clinton years how they cherry picked pro gun people to interview that made their side seem more " common sense" for lack of a better term.
     
  15. gunguy0829

    gunguy0829 Member

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    We need to make our points known without seeming like revolutionaries, we need to have to use a small amount of well thought out words, "walk quietly, but carry a big stick" but we we need not back down for any reason.

    No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

    -- 16 Am. Jur. Sec. 177 late 2d, Sec 256
     
  16. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    Is that the number of NRA members? I can say, without reservation, that number is is probably 40 times higher.....if not more.
     
  17. gunguy0829

    gunguy0829 Member

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    Thats the number from the NRA, but there are between 43 and 55 million gun owners in this counrty, another stat said 80 million.



    The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

    -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  18. LubeckTech

    LubeckTech Member

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    If we could get all of those who are buying guns today to become politically active would it give us enough of a voice to make a difference????
     
  19. lionking

    lionking Member

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    The NRA is the leading 2nd amendment lobbyist but there are many times more gun owners than just those in the NRA and those people vote also.

    As much as I hate the fact that if I want to go shooting I might not be able to get ammo or it will be sky high due to mass buying, that mass buying does send a message to politicians.

    You can see a media article posted like say " the CDC predicts gun deaths will out pace auto deaths by 2015" which in 1992 there wouldn't have been much ability to counteract that propaganda but now with the internet under many media articles people post responses and a VAST majority of responses call out these reports and are pro 2nd amendment responses. I wouldn't be surprised if news links like Yahoo and Google shut down responses to articles lol.

    You know, I know it is supply and demand but gun retailers have a vested interest in continuing sales also to show politicians people want the right, if they just kept prices steady and didn't jack up prices it would allow even more people to continue buying in mass.
     
  20. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    Many of us know that there will be some changes coming from Congress. Like most people here, I wonder just what it will be and how will they do it. After hearing speeches, round tables, local (CT) news cast, etc, I believe we are looking at several new laws.

    1. "They" are going after the evil black rifles. The "AR" is now the official evil against our country. It replaced Bin Laden. Expect "them" to go after "military type" weapons hard and fast. How, when there are millions already in circulation? They won't/can't just ban them. They can force registration of any military type weapon and tax them like they do with the full auto weapons and supressors. They can make it illegal to sell, transfer or give your military type weapon to anybody else. They won't take it away but you can't use it for barter any more.
    2. They can/will ban hi-cap magazines for anything semi-automatic. We've seen that before. This time they may not allow grandfathering because there are so many on the street. They may just say that in year 20xx they will be illegal to own or possess any hi-cap magazine. Period. There will be no 10 year moratorium.
    3. They will remove private sales of any gun. Period. Any transfer will have to go thru an FFL like many states already have. This "will" remove selling to people who aren't allowed, by law, to buy or own any type of gun. This closes the "gun show loophole that so many talk about and fear.
    4. They may "require" a sign off by a mental health professional (govt run) before issuing or renewing any permit we are now required to have. This is another step and expense for those of us who already have to have a permit to carry or own any type of gun. This would address the mental health aspect of ownership. However, the government can decide what is determined to be too "fragile" to own a gun. This is a scary thought for sure.
    5. Taxation of any retail sale of guns or gun related accessories to help pay for the process to be implemented and run. They could tax guns, ammo, mags, reloading equiptment and components, holsters, scopes, etc. If it's gun related, it's taxed.

    These thoughts are sobering. Those who say "just say no" are living in a fantasy world right now. There will be changes of some sort but we don't know what they will be and how it will work. No matter what it is, it won't be good. I feel we'll take steps forward in CCW and lose ground on an AWB. I don't think we'll have a choice. I think change is coming and we won't be happy.
     
  21. .333 Nitro Express

    .333 Nitro Express Member

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    Larry,

    A wee bit pessimistic, are we?

    I don't see any of the things you predict coming to pass. That would be the most draconian set of anti-gun laws I've seen passed in my lifetime. I promise you, that's not going to happen. Wait for the media to move on to the next shiny object (which may be already happening), for 0 to go on his Hawaiian vacation, for Congress to brawl over the "cliff" and to go out of session, and once everything settles the fervor to ban and regulate will have died down.
     
  22. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    larryh1108's crystal ball must not be getting the same channel as mine.
     
  23. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    The only thing I see "out there" is the mental health sign off. We already know they are going after the AR type rifles. They can't just ban them. Knowing that the AR is in their sights, what do you think they will do other than limiting the magazines? What will appease the bleeding hearts?

    The hi cap mag ban is almost a given.
    The gun show loophole ban is almost a given and many states already have addressed it.
    If anyone here thinks taxation is not in our future, your head is buried in the sand.
    So, other than the mental health signoff, what is the "crazy thinking"?
     
  24. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Defeatism is one of the strongest forces in human experience. If we start believing that our efforts to stop the antis will inevitably fail, then they surely will fail.

    If we keep believing we can stop them, we at least have a chance.

    I choose that chance.
     
  25. cskny

    cskny Member

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    frankly, you miss a very real point. Not all those buying guns today agree with a "no changes" or even "less legislation" opinion. In fact, not all members here even agree with these opinions.

    Just because like minded members post redundant and repetative affirmations in threads like this doesn't mean all gun owners agree. I'm not sure why folks here draw such grand conclusions, especially when other threads have illustrated we don't all agree.

    But, when members here have historically shared differing opinions they are almost always accused of being an anti-plant or a troll. So they learn to stay quiet and don't participate here. It doesn't make them non-gun owners, it just further distorts your community conclusion that everyone thinks alike.

    Change is coming not simply because "the other side" wants it. Change is coming because fellow gun owners also recognize changes are needed. That's why it's really coming.
     
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