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We've been fooled

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Molon Labe, Jun 12, 2004.

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  1. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Another late-night rant after drinking a fine malt beverage.

    I've been active in the gun culture for quite a while now. I have been involved in countless gun control debates, mostly on-line. There was a time when I was very up-to-date on all the relevant court rulings, statistics, research studies, 2nd Amendment arguments, etc. I would argue for hours and hours and hours on the real/intended meaning of the 2nd Amendment, on the meaning of the Miller vs. U.S. case, on John Lott’s statistics, etc. etc. etc. etc. I would also spend a good many hours writing my representatives, senators, the NRA, the GOA, and anyone else who might care to listen.

    But then I had an "awakening" moment. Suddenly, everything was clear. And simple.

    I realized we all have God-given rights. Period. End of story.

    I realized statistics have nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I now ignore the statistics. Even the "good" ones.

    I realized court decisions - even SCOTUS - have absolutely nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I now ignore court decisions as they pertain to my RKBA. Even the "good" ones.

    I realized the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I never bring up the 2nd Amendment when discussing my RKBA.

    So there you have it: when talking about my RKBA, I rarely (if ever) bring up statistics, court decisions, and/or the 2nd Amendment, as doing so would imply their existence is a prerequisite to the existence of my rights. They're not. They can all disappear, and my rights would still be fully intact.

    Do you see what I'm getting at? Most of us in the gun culture have been fooled into believing a lot of things must exist (court rulings, 2nd Amendment, etc.) before we can claim a right to keep and bear arms. But we don't need these things. We've been fooled.

    So how do I argue with the antis now?

    Anti-gunner: You don't have a right to possess guns... they're only for the National Guard... don't you know what "well regulated" means? Our Founding Fathers never envisioned the invention of the assault rifle, so those aren't protected... only the police and the military should have guns... the 2nd Amendment protects the rights of states to create militias, not individual gun ownership... the Supreme Court has never said individuals have a right to keep and bear arms... blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa.

    Me: Hmm. Is that right?

    Anti-gunner: Yea. (Anticipating a heated yet intellectually-stimulating debate.)

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Me: Come and get 'em.




    After that, I can't think of a whole lot more to say.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2004
  2. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    Have another one. :neener:

    That is why it is now called RKBA rather than the 2A Society. It is a natural human right. It can not be taken by congress, the courts, or by the executive. It can't be bargained away; nobody but me has the authority to bargain with my DIVINE right.
     
  3. Bridger

    Bridger Member

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    I have gradually come around to that pure reasoning on the matter too.

    But remember, there still are people, even vehemently anti-gun ones who can be convinced, and you'll need to be able to argue more than just MOLON LABE to them. But it is a good guiding principle I've found, and I center all my arguments on it being a god-given right, and that even if I cannot convince them otherwise, well, they'll have to come and take them :cool:
     
  4. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Congratulations, you've taken your first step into a larger world. :)
     
  5. Linux&Gun Guy

    Linux&Gun Guy Member

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    I know its a natural right but using 2A, stats and rulings all help convice fence sitters that will come to understand the truth in time.
     
  6. Foreign Devil

    Foreign Devil Member

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    Well I kind of like the ballsy talk, but talk of God given rights is not going to impress an atheist.

    Moreover most people are somewhat utilitarian, and accept the need to restrict individual activities for the common good.

    The way to get to them, if you ask me, is to ask what other rights are they willing to trade away in the quest for security. Ask if they will submit to random strip searches and tracking devices. Ask if we should cordon off inner city neighborhoods or track people's book borrowing habits. This way you get them thinking about the importance of individual rights in a free society without resorting to "Yu'll never get mah guns yeh jack booted gummint thug!" Of course if you just want to mess with them say that anyway.
     
  7. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    I think what Ol' Molon Labe is saying is that IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION. That we do not need to convince anyone to agree to let us have arms. He is saying that the right to arms is the same as the right to breathe.
     
  8. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    "A Nation of Cowards" (the whole book, not just one chapter) is worth reading because it presents that exact perspective very well.
     
  9. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Can I hear an Amen?

    Amen.

    :)
     
  10. Warren

    Warren Member

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    When I finally internalized that is when I mostly retired for online RKBA discussion.

    I'd much rather hang out with people on my side. I'll let the Young Turks and the Old Coots take on the unthinking mass that makes up the anti-freedom Fifth Column.
     
  11. Wiley

    Wiley Member

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    Me: "If I have to explain it to ya, ya wouldn't understand."
     
  12. Daniel

    Daniel Member

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    See the sig -- wishing I had a matter/antimatter device; I would be a good ruler, I promise.
     
  13. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

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    I recently just had that realization myself, probably only about a month ago. It's a huge ephiphany.
     
  14. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    Hefeweizen... probably the only beer I'll drink. With lots of lemon..

    I usually tell them, "I have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.." those are God given rights..

    And it's mighty tough to pursue happiness when you are dead right? So gotta protect myself and my happiness anyway I can... If it involves a 125grain .357Mag jacketed hollow point... SO BE IT..
     
  15. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    in any meat space interaction with the gun grabbing vampires of gun control,
    i have also gotten a tad "pragmatic" of late.


     
  16. Joey2

    Joey2 member

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    This has been my guiding principle from 1968 on.

    From way back when it was and still illegal to carry a weapon in Washington, D.C., however when I was stationed there in 1967 it was rated as the "murder capital " of the U.S.

    We (my wife and I) lived in the SouthEast section. It was all we could afford.

    This was a very bad part of town, we heard shots a night and read about it in the paper the next day.

    I went across into Virginia and bought my wife and I S&W's, a Model 10 for me and a Model 36 for her.

    We both carried where ever we went, the law be damned.

    Did the same thing in New York City on several occassions we were there.

    I made up my mind that we were not going to be a statistic in the morning papers.
     
  17. GnL

    GnL Member

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    While it may terminate any discussion, using a God-given rights argument against the gun grabbers is pointless. They don't believe in the existence of God. You are a subject of their omnipotent government. End of story.
     
  18. Oracle

    Oracle Member

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    While I agree with your thoughts on this matter, our legal system doesn't. Regardless of what rights we may believe are inherent to us as human beings, whether granted by a divine entity or not, that doesn't mean you won't get arrested for violating the current laws, and shot and/or killed if you resist arrest. So, be careful.

    And twoblink, I have to agree with you hefeweizen and lemon is great :).
     
  19. Boats

    Boats member

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    I view knowing all of the 2A/RKBA/Natural Law perspectives as equipping me for debating an anti from any perspective and prevailing. It becomes a tool using contest and I have all of the tools, like say, a Swiss Army Champion model, while my opponent has the equivalent of a nail clipper.

    You can never know too much, you can always not know enough to be effective.

    Then you start with grounds they can't debate on: Natural Law on self-defense.

    And even then your statistics are bunk because Kellerman/Bellesiles/Brady is a fraud.

    And even then your statistics are irrelevant because it is clear from the text of the 2A that gun control measures should be properly facing strict scrutiny in the courts and controlling the law abiding isn't a reasonable or effective exercise of the police powers of the government.

    Eventually you come full circle to the Natural Law argument in conclusion and they still have nothing but invented positions.

    Not being able to refute all of their approaches just leaves the impression on fence sitters that you didn't counter them because you can't.

    You need stong kung fu to protect your rights. Knowing more than one style is a smart move.
     
  20. Daniel

    Daniel Member

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    Oracle,

    That is why you must obtain a bigger stick than what the legislative and judicial branch have. Lies and a gavel? Eat isomer induced thermonuclear warheads scum. AHAHAHAHAHAH DIE!

    If'n I only had a super weapon.
     
  21. Treylis

    Treylis Member

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    I think that defending RKBA on purely moral rather than legalistic or statistical grounds is our best hope, unfortunately, most people don't want to take that path.
     
  22. Kingcreek

    Kingcreek Member

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    I've known a few of the "F the gun laws" type and they generally seem quite confortable with thier quiet disobedience. They buy guns without paper trails, load thier own ammo, aren't causing anyone else any problems, and aren't involved in much debate. Low profile. Kind of a shrug and a "you follow all the laws if you want, but I'll do it my way".
    Either we CHOOSE to participate or we don't. And, as in everything, we must accept the consequences of our actions.
    Disclaimer: Personally, I abide by all laws and I recommend everyone else do the same.
     
  23. mountainclmbr

    mountainclmbr Member

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    I have noticed that many of the "far left" seem to be athiests who act on emotion and their own selfishness. The argument that RKBA is a God-given right probably won't impress them any more than a well-reasoned arguement. We need to work within the system to prevent these people from increasing their political power. I believe that these people are athiests because the thought of being held accountable for their behavior is simply too terrible to consider. Having these people rule my life is too terrible for me to imagine.
     
  24. Jay Kominek

    Jay Kominek Member

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    No, and that probably shouldn't come as any surprise. Instead, you could tell them that self defense and the ownership of the tools to carry it out is a right granted by natural law, and then describe the reasoning that brings you to that conclusion. (I saw a good paper on it at one point which, regrettably, I can no longer find.)
    I don't think you grasp Atheism in the slightest, but that is beyond the scope of this forum.
    And it would be nice if you could avoid conflating it with whatever other parts of the population you feel vitriolic towards.
     
  25. OF

    OF Member

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    A vital understanding, Molon. More people need to get there, thanks for posting your thoughts. The understanding of the concept of a 'natural right' for some people is like trying to explain the color orange to a deer. Until they see it, it isn't going to make any sense.

    When I first started getting interesting in RKBA issues, it wasn't so much because of the issues revolving around freedom (I wasn't so interested in freedom back then...), but rather I found the subject fascinating, and it was intertwined with so many other fascinating subjects. That was what drew me in initially. It was only after that I realized how important this all is.

    Now I tell people that the 2nd Amendment is the most important sentance ever written in the history of mankind. That freaks them right out.

    - Gabe ;)
     
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