Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by piece of meat, Apr 23, 2011.
Those are great bar graphs. Thanks posting them. It is great to be able to visualize the differences.
However, if you throw a .22 LR and .30-30 Win. on the same graphs, the scale will change enough to make the 9MM, .40S&W, and .45ACP appear practically the same.
Yes, we all know accuracy is what's going to make the difference here, but you have more chances to be accurate with a higher capacity firearm, if you get my drift.
This argument is lacking. I am willing to carry a gun even though the odds of needing it are 1mil to 1. I am not willing to carry a larger, heavier gun because I am willing to try the odds (say 10mil to 1) that I may need more than six shots.
Also for the record I do not worry about having to reload, while with this line of thinking you should, regardless of round count, because you never know how many shots you will need. I believe my 6 shots will effectively stop a threat most of the time, but certainly not all of the time and that is a gamble I am willing to take. The same would be true if I carried 100 rounds, that would take care of most, but not all situations.
There is no magic number of rounds we need, it is always a compromise. More rounds would always be better but we have to put a limit somewhere. And (IMO) once you get over about five rounds the odds of needing more goes down fast enough to justify the compromise. Obviously other people are thinking different.
It boils down to personal opinion/preference. We all come to the same point. "once you get over ________ rounds the odds of needing more goes down fast enough to justify the compromise"
I have seen more gunshot victims and shell casings than I can recall. The 9mm rounds (I have seen) left clean, almost precision wounds. The .45's (I have seen) left sloppy and nasty wounds, often times did not exit. I have seen one .45 Colt (cowboy load) that left a fist sized wound, but did not knock an assailant down although his insides were twisted beyond repair and he succumbed to his injuries.
Here's some food for thought, internet is filled with people that have ideas about the 9mm vs. .45 acp. Every gunshot victim I have ever seen was in severe agony or dead.
Only one time did I ever see the end result of a gunfight where I was certain there was a reload. That was .45 Long Colt vs. .38 (I think it was a .38). The bad guy decided he needed to reload and the good guy decided to use his gigantic SAA revolver as a club delivering the final blow to the bad guy which finished the gun fight.
I think you guys put way too much thought in this. I don't think gun fights take as many rounds as you all may think they do.
I'm gonna give you benefit of the doubt and assume you're some kind of narcotics officer or something, since you said that you've watched gunfight after gunfight and even know the calibers involved. I'll admit I get all my terminal ballistics information from reading at a desk, but grapefruit sized holes form handgun loads sounds like an old wives' tale to me.
Although I suppose a .223 is really only a 44 magnum out a longer barrel...I once saw a .223 gunshot wound that hit the femur and blew a grapefruit-sized hole out the top of the kneecap. Maybe that "cowboy" load fragmented a rib and the energy was absorbed instead of overpenetrating.
I'm not going to post my credentials, it is up to you to decide if I'm full of it or not.
Yes, I put my eyes directly on a wound the size of a fist, did not see an exit wound (did not examine the bad guy's back, but I didn't see anything consistent with an exit wound) and I know for a fact that the wound did not stop the bad guy in his tracks. I can't tell you how big the hole from the bullet was, but the entire wound (surrounding tissues) was the size of a fist.
I'm sure we all shoot paper just fine. I imagine it gets a little more difficult to hit what we're shooting at when it's shooting back.
But if I lived in free America, 16 rounds can take care of more BG's in a gang...
I carry a 9mm compact 12+1 DAO with subsonic 147 grain on my person for self-defense. If I needed a combat handgun, I'm using a 1911.
The best 9mm +p bullet may expand, but the slowest hardball .45 will never shrink.
Back on topic, I agree that the 1911 is more accurate for that first shot. maybe it doesn't matter in most practical situations, but I see this all as part of a duel between quality vs. quantity. That "8 shot .45" (read 1911) that the guys is talking down on is a fully customizable piece of craftsmanship, which can help inspire an attitude towards shooting that builds character. I'm not saying these modern guns are inferior, but they're made (for the most part) in a different spirit.
Carry gun keeps rusting? Well, do I trade it in and buy 2 plastic guns, or save my money and coat the damn thing with a lifetime Melonite finish? Only got 8 rounds to finish a gunfught? I suppose we can either load smaller bullets or we could practice Mozambique drills till it's instinct.
Obviously there's shooters out there that do everything 1911 competition shooters do with less equipment, as epiphany pointed out, but when somebody brings up this type of question I assume that people who take their advice are more liable to draw up "cheap" attitudes towards guns and other things in life. You can call me a snob if you like, I'll live.
While I am indeed a fan of the 1911, this might be overstating it's abilities a bit...especially when speaking of production guns.
1. there are many guns as accurate as the 1911
2. it isn't any faster in controlled pairs than other pistols...the speed that followup shots can be fired is dependent on one's ability to see the sights on target
3. you don't need to be an expert marksman to control a DA first shot...there is no speed advantage to any trigger action to an accurate first shot. I worked with students and had them shooting more accurately with a DA first shot, than a SA first shot, in just a couple of hours
I remember this was a very BIG thing in the 80's. 9MM vs. .45 ACP just like revolver vs. auto.
Why are 1911's so expensive for such an old gun? Do they still make these brand new?
.45 doesn't need to expand as it still makes a big hole.
In shootings don't more people survive 9mm hits vs. .45 or .357?
At times due to dress I carry a 380 or J frame 38 but I am at the most ease with my G19 with spare G17 mag, more so than with a G22,23,32,20 or 21, 1911s, K&N frames.
I can always put more rounds into a smaller group faster with the G19 than the others I have available to me, good HP ammo only enhances what I already like in the gun.
I carry a G17 now back home and don't worry about big bullets, I concern myself more with capacity and accuracy.
But is the person highly motivated, drugged/drunk, thin/heavy, muscled/fat, and so on? In the book "Thank God I had a Gun" one of the chapters deals with a man who shoots two bad guys that break into his hote room to rob him. He fires on them until his (Colt Commander .45) gun is empty. Once empty he ends up having to fight with one of the men who is very large. He uses his gun as a club. He figures he must have missed. Eventually the bad guy falls out. Turns out one of the .45 fmj rounds had severed his Aorta. The guy was dead just didn't know it. You coulddn't hope for much better shot placement.
Handguns kill by shutting down the CNS (brain or spine) or dropping the blood pressure too low to sustain life. It can take awhile for a man to bleed out. Each person has to make up their own mind which they would have more confidence in. Less big bullets or more slightly smaller ones. No matter how you cut it .451 vs. .355 or so is not that big of a difference. And frontal area is what does the damage in a handgun sized round. I just can't help but think if he would of had a 16 round 9mm he would of still been shooting and not wrestling. But as I said each must pick their own poison.
I've decided I want lots of bullets in my handgun. Their is no negative to lots of rounds if you shoot well. As far as choice goes the rest of the world and in 1985 the U.S. Military decided that more rounds was a better choice. If I'm a downed pilot with only a pistol do I want 15-16 rounds with the mag in my pistol? Or do I want 30-31 in my pistol? I know what I would choose.
It has 16 rounds and one in the chamber.
I don't even carry a spare magazine for either of them.
Old guys tend to not give a ****. Therefore they don't get rattled nerves like a youngster does. The old guy just won't get shaky or get second thoughts. That's got nothing to do with skill or training. It's just life.
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