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What are the legality issues...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Nolo, Aug 16, 2007.

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  1. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    That concern cutting down an M1 Carbine to have only a pistol-grip and a shorter barrel?
    I was just wondering, not "working" on anything in particular.
     
  2. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    If you were to cut the barrel to less than 16 inches you would need to register the gun as a short barreled rifle and pay the $200 stamp.

    This applies regardless of whether the gun still has a buttstock.
     
  3. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    If you can lawfully own a pistol, I don't see why it would be a problem. The better question--why cut it down into an enforcer--are you mad at it?:p
     
  4. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    Even with a 16 inch barrel, a rifle with an overall length under 26" (measured with the stock extended) is considered a short-barreled rifle. I would look around for one of the M1 pistols instead.
     
  5. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    No, I'm not mad at it, but I would have two, one that has the full stock, and one that's cut down. It's mostly just a fantasy, though.
    And I thought that they called it "sawed off" if it once had a full stock on it or was capable of mounting a stock. Or is that only shotguns? Laws make soooooo much sense.
    What's this M1 Pistol you are talking about?
     
  6. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Iver Johnson made a model called "Enforcer". It was a M1 Carbine action pistol. You can find them if you look around.

    Turning a rifle into a pistol is illegal.
     
  7. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Several companies (Iver Johnson, Universal, etc) made commercial M1 Carbine "pistols" at various times. Just like the current crop of AR and AK pistols, and the PLR-16. I've seen a couple at shows, but don't know much about them.

    Enforcer.gif
     
  8. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Neato looking.
     
  9. JTW Jr.

    JTW Jr. Member

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    What are the legality issues...

    short version :
    file the proper paperwork along with fingerprints , etc , pay the $200 , get approved , do the work...voila'.. one cool registered short bll rifle ( SBR ).
     
  10. Monkeybear

    Monkeybear Member

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    Absolutely.

    Pistol into rifle? Sure! Rifle into pistol? NO!

    You can put a short barrel on it and make a SBR but you can't then cut the stock into a pistol grip. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
     
  11. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I see. So I can cut down the barrel, but not the stock. Does anyone know of a good place to get one of those Enforcers?
     
  12. JTW Jr.

    JTW Jr. Member

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    rifled bll length can't be under 16" and the OAL not under 26" , as always dbl check with the ATF to verify :)
     
  13. GarandOwner

    GarandOwner Member

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    You can do it, but you would have to register your firearm as a Short barreled rifle SBR with the ATF....of course you need law signitures and have to give them $200. My question to you is why destroy a piece of history.
     
  14. GarandOwner

    GarandOwner Member

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    Side note: I heard from a friend of mine that is obsessed with M1 Carbines (has all 28 "different" configurations of them....I think its 28 but might be more) he said that they were popular with the Airborne troops in WWII to cut down the barrel and use it as a side arm for those that were not privilaged with a 1911
     
  15. JTW Jr.

    JTW Jr. Member

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  16. Monkeybear

    Monkeybear Member

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    I have always wanted one too but damn they are expensive.
     
  17. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Side note: I heard from a friend of mine that is obsessed with M1 Carbines (has all 28 "different" configurations of them....I think its 28 but might be more) he said that they were popular with the Airborne troops in WWII to cut down the barrel and use it as a side arm for those that were not privilaged with a 1911


    I never heard of this being popular in WWII but saw it was done frequently in Vietnam. This was usually done with a M2 kit installed and a M1A1 stock to get the pistol grip. The rational most gave it was something extra to carry in a vehicle you could return fire with in case on an ambush. Blast them with a the cutdown carbine and then go your M16. My experience is they were hard to aim accurately and probably not worth the effort. I think it would be a way to destroy a nice carbine and M1A1 stock.

    One conversion I saw I did like and found useful was cutting down the barrel and using a M1A1 stock. It was very compact and still gave you a stock to shoot it accurately. You could always shoot it with the stock folded if you were so inclined. I guess you could do this legally and register it as a SBR. It would be a lot more useful than just a pistol grip.
     
  18. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    You're wrong. A SBR doesn't have to have a shoulder stock.
     
  19. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Oh, this is getting confusing. But I think it's safe to assume that you can't convert a rifle into a pistol, however ludicrous that may be.
     
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Once a rifle, it will always be a rifle in the eyes of the ATF, so if you cut down either the barrel or the stock, to where the barrel is shorter than 16" or the overall length is less than 26", it becomes a short barrelled rifle and you need to follow NFA regulations.

    If it was originally built as a pistol (and has no stock), then you can modify it as a pistol, subject to the regulations that govern pistols.
     
  21. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Short barrel rifles are not illegal, they just require a NFA Form I to make
    and a NFA Form 4 to 'sell' (technically transfer NFA registration). AT the
    federal level. Most states let the feds handle NFA regulation, but
    some states do have their own regs on rifle length and shortening rifles.
    Minnesota considers a folding stock rifle a "pistol" if it is under a
    certain length folded. Which implies you can carry a folding stock AK
    on a pistol license !?!?!

    M1A1 with standard 18" barrel is shorter than 26" with the stock folded.
    The ATF allows this as an exception to the 26" limit by measuring
    overall length with the stock unfolded. If you remove the wire shoulder
    piece, you have an illegally short rifle (repairs to the stock that might
    require removing the wire shoulder piece should only be done with
    the barreled action removed from the stock).

    Under federal regs, if the rifle is 16" or more barrel length, and
    26" or more overall, it is legally a rifle even if it has a pistol grip
    stock and no shoulder stock. With the M1A1 stock and even the
    standard 18" barrel, there is no way to get a pistol grip-only rifle
    out of it within the 26" limit. Just removing the wire shoulder
    stock would require a Form 1.
     
  22. MisterPX

    MisterPX Member

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    You talkin about an M1 carbine, or an M1A1 Thompson? ;)




    OR is there an M1A1 carbine too....
     
  23. Ian

    Ian Member

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    The folding stock M1 carbine was designated the M1A1 by the military.
     
  24. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Jeez... I'm almost wishing I hadn't started this thread. I'm more confused than when I started.
     
  25. Ron James

    Ron James Member

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    It's not confusing at all. You can take a new action such as a Ruger 10-22 action that has never been on a rifle and make a pistol out of it. But you can't cut down a Ruger 10-22 rifle to make a pistol. If you could find a new .30 caliber carbine action that has never been on a rifle, then you can make a pistol out of it, this is how the Enforcer was made. BUT, you can not take a .30 carbine and cut it down to make a pistol out of it. You can take a new AK type Action that has never been of a rifle and made a pistol out of it, but you can not cut down a AK type rifle to make a pistol. See, not confusing at all. Now I'm not going to touch the ATF rules and Tax stamps, over all lengths and barrel lenghts. I just wanted to lay out the basis rules.:)
     
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