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What are the non-gun self defense alternatives?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by chaim, Mar 26, 2003.

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  1. chaim

    chaim Member

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    Hmmm, you know here, most recently in a thread by new member Kaxter, and often at the old TFL you can see threads something along the lines of "I don't live in a CCW state, should I carry anyway?". It has got me thinking, you see those all the time but there aren't often threads on the alternatives.

    Many of us live in non-CCW states (or at least in states that are effectively non-CCW). Some live in CCW states but may want an alternative to a gun (maybe as a backup) on occasion.

    So here is the "what should I carry if I don't live in a CCW state" thread.


    Now lets be realistic, try to post ideas that can actually be reasonable. If you live in a non-CCW state what do you do? If you do live in a CCW state what do you use for those times that you decide not to carry a gun? If you always carry a gun do you have any non-gun backups? If not, then this is academic, again being reasonable what are some options?
     
  2. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    Run.

    Even if you have a CCW, running is always good option. Removing yourself from the threat maybe easier than removing the threat.
     
  3. chaim

    chaim Member

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    To answer my own question, here are some of my solutions:

    I am too far out of shape to rely on any martial arts type training. Plus, it seems to me that many are as applicable to self defense as is PPC or some of the pistol games. They are more sport than self defense oriented anymore. Of course there are some classes that are geared towards hand-to-hand self defense that borrow from the various martial arts and many martial arts techniques can be useful but I am not currently involved in these (though I may consider them).

    Primarily I do rely on tools:
    -I carry a 3" Kershaw folder that is spring assisted for opening (you start the process but it is very fast due to spring assistance, it is legally not considered a switchblade). It cost about $40 at Bass Pro Shops.

    -I sometimes also carry a multi-tool that, while not meant for SD use, could if needed be pressed into service (the knife on it is short but sharp). Cost $5-20.

    -Sometimes I carry pepper spray (I have two dispensers- one that fits in a pocket and has a nice little key chain on the end, the other has a belt clip and is very comfortable there and holds more than the pocket spray). I used to carry pepper spray all the time but I've lately been a bit remiss. Costs, usually around $10-15.

    -I work in the schools so I can't always carry something (all weapons are illegal on school grounds here). However, it is possible to at least have something useful in the car that is dual use (a screwdriver, stout umbrella and a hammer are my most likely options). Costs, vary greatly (my nice and very stout umbrella was about $40-50, the screwdriver and hammer are only a few bucks).

    -I recently bought a machete (about 3' long) as a camping tool that it seems to me could come in handy as a backup for home defense (thus I've started keeping it by my bed) and it comes in a nice scabbard (I guess being a tool it is a sheath) to protect the blade so I suppose it could also be kept in a car for defense against an attacker when you leave or are going to your car. Best off it only cost a few bucks (about $7 or 8).

    -I am considering a camp axe or hatchet (a short 6" long backpacking axe may be ideal) to keep in my car to protect against carjacking. Costs, $15-30.

    -I have a 4D cell Maglite in my car that could easily double as a weapon should I need it and have access to it (probably better for use as a HD backup). Cost, I don't remember but I think they are around $15-30.

    Those are my options. I can think of many other possibilities- walking sticks, expanding batons, even hairspray in a woman's purse. What do you guys use? What would you use? What are you thinking about using?
     
  4. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    911 dial-a-prayer? :eek:
     
  5. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

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    Are you allowed to carry an Asp?

    No, not the snake. Although that would be quite a deterrent.
     
  6. megatronrules

    megatronrules Member

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    Asp work nice. Running is my option though I cant run far.:(
    There are martial arts and other forms of "unarmed" self defense. My brother has done Aikido and some other thing i cant spell or remember :D He can hurt someone very bad very fast if the are close enough to him. The problem is it takes daily practice and years to become good enough in any art to use it unders stress. Years dont help us now.
    A small folding knife like a Spiderco Delica is a great choice. They are legal about everywhere. Pepper spray is another option to consider. There is one called Freeze. I think thats the name of it. I dont know if its available to the public. Corrections Officers here use it. I hear its nasty stuff. Good luck and lets hope you never need any of it :)
     
  7. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Another vote for the ASP.
     
  8. Tommy Gunn

    Tommy Gunn Member

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    Go to the pawnshops and look for a blackjack or asp. Knives are good too.
     
  9. pax

    pax Member

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    Excellent questions, and good answers all around.

    See the forum titled, "Non Firearms Weapons"? That's where this goes, so I'll move it down there for you. :)

    pax

    To err is human but to really foul up requires a computer. -- Paul Erlich
     
  10. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Most conventional carries:

    Blade
    Pepperspray
    Surefire/Maglight

    Dogs are good.

    Try plastic Kerambit by Kelly Worden

    Sjambok

    Japanese Bokken (faster than baseball bat & better contact surface -probably not legal)

    Entrenching tool in trunk of car. This is easier to employ than a knife, has heft and will do more damage than a knife. Multiple surfaces and can be used to defend/block and keep distance better than a knife. Also can destroy a dog. -little known favorite weapon of WWII.
     
  11. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    Ashtray, Handset of phone, Phone itself, Rock, Stick, Chair, curtain rod, steel toe'd shoe, shoelaces, socks filled with dirt/and or rocks, belt, belt buckle [ depends on the buckle as to how effective you can be ], lamp, stapler, carjack, tire iron, broom, steel or wooden ruler, coffee mug, bandana, handkerchief, and certainly not the last in a long list but the most important of all which is your mind.

    With your wits about you at all times you have "weapons of opportunity" or "unconventional weapons" to choose from.

    You are never without the means to defend yourself if you have prepared yourself for the possibles. If you haven't practiced and adhered to the "colors of awareness" you will likely get spanked.

    Brownie
     
  12. kannonfyre

    kannonfyre Member

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    According to the threat level

    No civilian may carry a gun in my country so I'm always stuck with hand weapons and the like. This being the case, I carry with the threat level in mind.

    If discretion is needed or I don't expect violence then I'd carry
    pepper foam and a tactical folder/kubotan.

    If I'm going through a rough part of town then I'd pack a telescopic baton and OC spray.

    Lastly, If I'm heading through the shanty towns/slums or going through lawless areas then a can of pepper foam and a fixed blade fighting knife is in order.

    Of course, training cannot be neglected. Go for a pepper spray course if you can find it and then take kali or arnis/escrima lessons to gain a foundation is weaponscraft for blades/sticks.
     
  13. Wilhelm

    Wilhelm Member

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    I train 2 days a week Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 2-3 days a week Muay Thai. Now that being said if confronted with more then one opponent or an opponent with a weapon I would rather leave then rely on my H2H. There for I carry on my person a Spyderco Police model in my pocket and a 3' chain that goes to my wallet. While I have been forbidden from brining my knife to certain establishments I have very very rarley been disallowed my wallet chain. I am a contractor so I carry a 120z framing hammer in my truck if needed. From time to time I carry my pistol (usually a 9000S). Unless confronted by a Kali guru I feel my chain is just fine for any non firearm situation I may encounter on the street.




    Wilhelm
     
  14. Jack19

    Jack19 Member

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    Fox Pepper Spray..the best on the market....gives you a distance alternative...
    [​IMG]

    Surefire with a TID....blinding light and pain all rolled into one...
    [​IMG]
     
  15. 280PLUS

    280PLUS Member

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    whats an asp?

    for what it's worth,,,

    a big set of keys on a long keychain upside the head, I have an oversized safety pin for a keychain, I stood right in front of a state trooper one time holding this in my hand while he's asking if I have weapons and I'm saying no. Only later did I remember that yes in fact, that pin is a weapon and he didn't pick up on it. I had no intentions of harming him so the point was essentially non- existent, but if I was somebody else who was not such a nice guy,,,

    a thumb in an eye

    punch in the adams apple

    a hard forward/upward palm in the nose is one of the most effective and easiest to achieve

    the groin is too easy to miss

    after all of the above, run lik h***

    basic self defense for the average ones

    m
     
  16. D.W. Drang

    D.W. Drang Member

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    In general, the reply is that what you carry for defense if, for some reason, you can't carry a concealed firearm depends on where you are: What's legal? In some places it's ilegal for citizens to carry OC spray! In WA it is illegal to carry a knife "for the purpose of fighting", which is kinda ambiguous...

    My only point of disagreement with 280PLUS is that "Run like H***" should be the first option, if available.
     
  17. Soap

    Soap Member

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    Brownie's post says volumes about killer instinct. I would never want to fight a guy that suggests using a bandana to put the hurt on an attacker! :D

    If I had my options though, I would carry a 21" ASP and two knives or just three knives. As for the knives, I would get rid of the Kershaw assisted opener. Its a good knife but do you want to worry about getting to that tiny safety when someone is on top of you?

    Plus I would be in shape enough that I could run relatively long distances in a short amount of time. Far too many people have all this cool gear but they can't even sprint 200 yards without having a coronary.
     
  18. ruger357

    ruger357 Member

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    Jack19
    Where did you get the TID for the E2E?
     
  19. Soap

    Soap Member

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  20. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    A big bandana snapped like a locker room towel to the face, eyes, neck seems to grab the attention of most people.

    Remember how we snapped each other in the showers, and how much it hurt? Could put an eye out asap and the accuracy wasn't something we had to train on, it was a few snaps and you had it down.

    Now, take that same bandana and sew a small ball bearing into one of the corners. Carry the bandana folded over between your belt and pants. Looks cool in some sections of the country and it you go to snapping that thing on someone it will break bones in the face, pluck an eye out, and as a last resort there are tehcniques to trap incoming limbs to redirect their energy and turn their a#$ around.

    A few quarters, anything with a little weight can be sewn into the corner of the bandana and it all works the same way.

    If you know how to use one as a defensive tool they are subtle and draw no attention whatsoever until you start cranking people.

    Brownie
     
  21. MrAcheson

    MrAcheson Member

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    Buy and wear shoes you can run in. Get in good enough shape to run well. What is the first rule in a gunfight? Bring a gun. If that isn't possible, then do your damnedest not to get in that fight through awareness and active avoidence.

    Outside of contact range (and even within it depending on the individuals involved) a firearm trumps everything. Most thugs carry handguns and don't train so they cant shoot well. Open up the distance and keep it open. Your best self defense tools are likely to be your head and your feet.
     
  22. Bonker

    Bonker Member

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    TEXAS !!!
    Avoid danger in the first place. Your brain is the greatest weapon in any arsenal!

    Flee! Run! Second best weapon is you can do it, although statistics favor a gun over running.

    As far a real weapons, the best one is the one that you feel comfortable with and the one that you will actually have with you when the poop hits the fan.
    For example, a baseball bat is awesome, but completely useless if you don't carry it due to it's size.

    My opinion is that any weapon I use besides a gun has the purpose of putting distance between me and my attacker so I can either flee or get to a gun.
     
  23. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    What are the non-gun self

    You can run but you will likely die tired.

    Getting shot in the back is not an alternative for me. Others mileage may vary.

    Distance is key, of course, but if the distance is within their range to begin with you stand the risk of getting shot in the back as well.

    I'd rather die trying to take him with me than get poked in the back. Training can negate some of their advantage. Trusting their marksmanship is bad is a great leap of faith.

    I'd rather leave my fate more in my hands than others. And then you have the times when threatened where you have no place to run as well.
    If that were your only plan of defense you would have no defense at all.

    Unconventional weapons are around us contiuously.
    Learn to recognize those items as such and the odds are not as drastically weighed against you.

    Brownie
     
  24. Kaxter

    Kaxter Member

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    Wow, its been 2 months but im going to reply anyways:)

    I carry an Emerson Specwar with me at all times. I was mad at myself when I first bought it because this specwar is not "waved" but I am now quite happy because brownie0486 thought me how to "brownie pop" the knife. I can get it open as fast as the waved ones. This is all I carry, and because OTB vetoed the CCW bill, I think I will be carrying it for a long time.
     
  25. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    I interpreted the thread starter as asking: "What can I carry to help me defend myself besides a gun?" When hauling @$$ is not an option:

    1. Nothing

    Defense Options

    Bare Hands/Feet- Omnipresent (hopefully). Works well for some people, works better with some training. Less effective when the attacker is bigger, stronger, more skillful, better trained or is armed. Good likelihood of getting injured if facing armed attacker.

    Environmental/Improvised Weapons: What you can get your hands on at the time; People have used all kinds of things, briefcases, firewood, golf clubs, bottles, chain, crowbars, you name it. Some of these things work fine for clobbering people, but are still dependent on size and strength to be truly effective. You are also leaning on luck (the item lying around when you need it; the attacker giving you the chance to grab it). Good likelihood of getting injured if facing armed attacker.

    2. Knife

    Disregarding possible legal issues, the knife is a easy weapon to carry always have on your person. It is much more effective than bare hands, and can be a very effective escape tool vs. unarmed attackers. Less dependent on strength than bare hands. Training is vital for effectiveness (less instinctive than bare hands). Require close proximity with the attacker (opposite of the goal of getting away). Good likelihood of getting injured if facing armed attacker.

    3. Kuboton, mini-flashlight, self defense "tools",

    All the detractors of a knife with reduced effectiveness. Are legal in some places that guns/knives are not. Not bashing them, the Kuboton wrist lock is a personal favorite of mine, but that is more of a control technique.

    4. Electric stun guns, pepper spray

    Useful escape devices. Independent of physical strength. Gives new meaning to spay and pray. Effectiveness varies. Maybe difficult/expensive to get quality equipment (some LE only) Taser and pepper spay extend the useful range a few feet. Training still required.

    5. Batons, saps, larger flashlights, similar.

    Batons and saps have legal issues is some places. IMHO better than all the above assuming some upper body strength and training.

    5a. Tools, sporting goods.

    Baseball bats, hockey sticks, golf clubs, tire irons, etc. Low key and bellow most peoples radar (in the proper environment).


    All the above are inferior to a good handgun, but useful in some situations.


    David
     
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