What are the Pro's and Con's of a 5.56 Nato AK?
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Medusa
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Yeigh fur sure. Especially when it has a Galil folding stock, suppressor and Aimpoint or Eotech on it (yeah, I've shot that combo - easy to lug around, compact when stock is folded, yet it offers enough oomph for general close-in work). What can go wrong?
Deer Hunter
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It's a bit high, but you can still work with it. Anything out to 300 yards is easy pickings.
wyocarp
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I have to agree with this post.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Pro: Better accuracy in most guns than 7.62x39mm, flatter shooting cartridge gives greater effective range, better choice of HD loads.
Con: Magazine availability, magazine availability, and magazine availability.
Con: Magazine availability, magazine availability, and magazine availability.
I think the 5.56 AK misses the point of the Avtomat Kalashnikov. However, that's very subjective, and you may feel differently.
The main concern I would have is that you're giving up the accuracy of the AR pattern by moving to the AK (some of which is inherent in the design, some of which is due to the iron crappy sights), and you're then giving up the hitting power of the .30 cal AK round and its inherent reliability (more tapered case) by going with the 5.56 round. So, you end up with a flatter-shooting cartridge and the greater accuracy-at-range that this brings, but you're putting it in a gun that is less capable of being accurate at those ranges.
The gun will certainly work, and may even work very well indeed, but to my mind, 5.56 and 6.8 go in an AR and 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 go in an AK.
Variety is the spice of life, however, so you may feel differently. I also like vanilla ice cream and drive a Dodge, so take that for what it's worth.
mike
The main concern I would have is that you're giving up the accuracy of the AR pattern by moving to the AK (some of which is inherent in the design, some of which is due to the iron crappy sights), and you're then giving up the hitting power of the .30 cal AK round and its inherent reliability (more tapered case) by going with the 5.56 round. So, you end up with a flatter-shooting cartridge and the greater accuracy-at-range that this brings, but you're putting it in a gun that is less capable of being accurate at those ranges.
The gun will certainly work, and may even work very well indeed, but to my mind, 5.56 and 6.8 go in an AR and 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 go in an AK.
Variety is the spice of life, however, so you may feel differently. I also like vanilla ice cream and drive a Dodge, so take that for what it's worth.
mike
jpatterson
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+1 Taliv haha
Click Click Boom
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Its looking like the idea of a 5.56 AK is taking the lead.
I like the idea of having a more trouble/maintaince free rifle that shoots a US militay round. If you ever had to use a rifle for a long time with only 5.56 NATO being readily available and not being able to keep a very good cleaning regement this is a good choice.
There are plenty of Circle 10 Mags around and this mag seems to work with many of the 5.56 AKs. There is also the Ak to AR mag adapter. I don't see a magazine issue unless you have one of the more rare 5.56 AKs.(even Galils have a AR mag adapter) If you buy a ton of mags and replacement parts up front it should last you your life time. AR mag prices have skyrocketed in recent weeks and the Bulgy O-10s have stayed the same.
With a optic how much does the acuracy differnce change between a 5.56 AK and a M4gery? You can fix the bad AK sights, you go with a Galil/Valmet sight or thoes HK sights that people are using on Siaga conversions.
This thread has made me like the Idea of a very reliable, decently acurate, simple to maintain and compact rifle.
I like the idea of having a more trouble/maintaince free rifle that shoots a US militay round. If you ever had to use a rifle for a long time with only 5.56 NATO being readily available and not being able to keep a very good cleaning regement this is a good choice.
There are plenty of Circle 10 Mags around and this mag seems to work with many of the 5.56 AKs. There is also the Ak to AR mag adapter. I don't see a magazine issue unless you have one of the more rare 5.56 AKs.(even Galils have a AR mag adapter) If you buy a ton of mags and replacement parts up front it should last you your life time. AR mag prices have skyrocketed in recent weeks and the Bulgy O-10s have stayed the same.
With a optic how much does the acuracy differnce change between a 5.56 AK and a M4gery? You can fix the bad AK sights, you go with a Galil/Valmet sight or thoes HK sights that people are using on Siaga conversions.
This thread has made me like the Idea of a very reliable, decently acurate, simple to maintain and compact rifle.
WardenWolf
member
I don't know about the other 5.56 AK's, but Saigas average about 2 MOA, particularly the .223 versions because they have an overly thick barrel. The Saiga .223 is built on the same frame as the 7.62 version, and the barrel outer diameter is the same as the one for the larger round, resulting in a gun that's very overbuilt.
I wouldn't say 2 MOA is "giving up" the accuracy of an AR rifle. Yes, an AR can do dime-sized groups if you get the right ammo in the right AR, but 2 MOA is perfectly fine out to the maximum effective range of 5.56. You have to recognize that this round is only good out to 500 yards if you REALLY stretch it, and at 2 MOA you'd be shooting a 10-inch group at that range, which reliably places it within a man's torso.
If you get a Saiga, the aftermarket mags you want to get are Surefires. These are fully reliable, and even better than the stock mag due to a built-in last-round bolt hold open. The one true drawback to the Saiga is that the bullet guide is located in the magazine (although you can buy a bullet guide kit from Dinzag for $30 and install it), so they need a tiny bit of work to use standard magazines.
I wouldn't say 2 MOA is "giving up" the accuracy of an AR rifle. Yes, an AR can do dime-sized groups if you get the right ammo in the right AR, but 2 MOA is perfectly fine out to the maximum effective range of 5.56. You have to recognize that this round is only good out to 500 yards if you REALLY stretch it, and at 2 MOA you'd be shooting a 10-inch group at that range, which reliably places it within a man's torso.
If you get a Saiga, the aftermarket mags you want to get are Surefires. These are fully reliable, and even better than the stock mag due to a built-in last-round bolt hold open. The one true drawback to the Saiga is that the bullet guide is located in the magazine (although you can buy a bullet guide kit from Dinzag for $30 and install it), so they need a tiny bit of work to use standard magazines.
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nalioth
Member
They sure can. You can also kiss any resale value goodbye, as you'll be grinding the receiver to get it to fit. The AR15 mag adapter only "snaps in" on the Galil it was designed for. All other usage requires surgery.Click Click Boom said:
Unlike the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 standardization agreements with the satellite countries, all 5.56x45 AKs are commercial ventures of their individual manufacturers and no standardization agreement exists.Click Click Boom said:
No, I'd say it's the Weiger mag (or their Romanian knockoffs).Click Click Boom said:
They are WASRs built for IO instead of Century. Like the WASR, YMMV on "decent".Click Click Boom said:
I think a lot of you are very shortsighted. The "it's more expensive" argument is not gonna be viable after we stop hostilities overseas.
Click Click Boom
Member
I see a lot of Circle 10 mags being used in Norincos, Siagas and WASR rifles. Why are people doing this? DO the Circle 10 mags work in other rifles?
Here lately circle 10s are more common than weiger mags and they just work with little to no mods. Arsenal brought a bunch over when they started the SLR-106 production.
I have to disagree on the Chinese being the best option for a .223 AK. One of my FFL buddies had one and said it keyholed with 62gr ammo, I think it's a 1:12 twist. The Arsenals, Saigas, and SAR/WASR use 1:7 (old Saigas may have 1:9) so they can use a larger varity of ammo.
I have to disagree on the Chinese being the best option for a .223 AK. One of my FFL buddies had one and said it keyholed with 62gr ammo, I think it's a 1:12 twist. The Arsenals, Saigas, and SAR/WASR use 1:7 (old Saigas may have 1:9) so they can use a larger varity of ammo.
Deer Hunter
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My Saiga has a 1:10 rate of twist. You sure the new ones are faster?
WardenWolf
member
Newer Saigas are 1:9. The .223 Saigas are optimized for around 62-grain ammo. I was shooting Black Hills 62-grain at 2 MOA. Anything heavier is going to lose accuracy.
Deer Hunter
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My Saiga has a 1:10 rate of twist. You sure the new ones are faster?
WardenWolf
member
I'm positive. Izhmash increased the twist rate because of complaints about shooting the 62-grain loads that are popular for hunting.
nalioth
Member
With appropriate dremel-fu, any AK mag can be made to fit in any AK.Click Click Boom said:
With no mods to them, the Bulgy waffles will fit a Saiga.
Cutting the corners (literally, the front corners) will allow them to fit in a SAR-3/WASR-3
With a dremel and a mission, I'm sure they'll fit other types of AK, as well.
FMJMIKE
Member
My Saiga in .223/5.56 is a great rifle. It is much more reliable than any AR-15 I ever owned, it shoots any ammo I feed it, it shoots 2 MOA or a little better, it costs a lot less than an AR, it uses 35 round Galil Orlite mags and it is fun to shoot !!!
Evil Monkey
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The greatest thing about a 5.56mm AK is......IT USES 5.56mm! It is one of the most common intermediate rounds in the western hemisphere, most inportantly, in the US market/police/military.
Now what I'm about to say next is purely an opinion, as some would value certain kalashnikov features more than what other rifles offer.
Once a package deal of a 5.56mm ak and around 10 mags (a "package" to others may vary in decription) break $900-$1,000, the rifle is no longer worth the money.
You can customize/build an ar15 and get 10, maybe even 20 mags for that kind of money. Other perks include better logistics, controls, etc.
Now what I'm about to say next is purely an opinion, as some would value certain kalashnikov features more than what other rifles offer.
Once a package deal of a 5.56mm ak and around 10 mags (a "package" to others may vary in decription) break $900-$1,000, the rifle is no longer worth the money.
You can customize/build an ar15 and get 10, maybe even 20 mags for that kind of money. Other perks include better logistics, controls, etc.
wally
Member
Main issue is lack of mags. Chinese are slightly different from Eastern European.
If you have a source for good mags (forget about the ProMags) then I see the appeal of having an AR and an AK in the same caliber.
I've all the basic AK .223 variations, and AR in 7.62x39. On balance I'd say the AK and AR in 7.62x39 are the better combo if you only want a single caliber setup, but the AR in 7.62x39 suffers even worse magazine availability, although not quite as bad as for the Mini-30
--wally.
If you have a source for good mags (forget about the ProMags) then I see the appeal of having an AR and an AK in the same caliber.
I've all the basic AK .223 variations, and AR in 7.62x39. On balance I'd say the AK and AR in 7.62x39 are the better combo if you only want a single caliber setup, but the AR in 7.62x39 suffers even worse magazine availability, although not quite as bad as for the Mini-30
--wally.
OpFlash
Member
Speaking of AKs in general, why would I want to shoot a less powerful more expensive round in a platform that can't utilize its range and inherent accuracy advantage?
BTW I do own a Saiga in .308 and love it. If I was going to buy a 5.56 AK it would be a Saiga, but 5.56 is just too overpriced these days and would not offer enough accuracy gain in a Saiga to offset the reduction in penetration and increase in price. My .308 is a 16" carbine model ideal for short to medium range cover penetration, and the occasional deer hunt. It's probably accurate enough for more but the side rail optics mounts leave a lot to be desired. Yes .308 is even more expensive than 5.56 but it is far more powerful/versatile.
BTW I do own a Saiga in .308 and love it. If I was going to buy a 5.56 AK it would be a Saiga, but 5.56 is just too overpriced these days and would not offer enough accuracy gain in a Saiga to offset the reduction in penetration and increase in price. My .308 is a 16" carbine model ideal for short to medium range cover penetration, and the occasional deer hunt. It's probably accurate enough for more but the side rail optics mounts leave a lot to be desired. Yes .308 is even more expensive than 5.56 but it is far more powerful/versatile.
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Click Click Boom
Member
Again, I dont see the ammo cost differense.
Steel cased wolf .223 is $3.99 a box while 7.62x39 is $3.49. Brass 7.62x39 is more than brass cased 5.56/.223.
.50 cents a box isnt that bad. and I prefer shooting 5.56 to 7.62x39.
A little dealer searching found me 10 Circle 10 mags for $200 bucks if I buy them all or $25 each. AR mags that have the same reliability are Mag Pul P-mags(over $20 bucks now) or HK steel mags (about $40)
5.56x45 is inbetween the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. Some say 5.56 has better real world effect.
Steel cased wolf .223 is $3.99 a box while 7.62x39 is $3.49. Brass 7.62x39 is more than brass cased 5.56/.223.
.50 cents a box isnt that bad. and I prefer shooting 5.56 to 7.62x39.
A little dealer searching found me 10 Circle 10 mags for $200 bucks if I buy them all or $25 each. AR mags that have the same reliability are Mag Pul P-mags(over $20 bucks now) or HK steel mags (about $40)
5.56x45 is inbetween the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. Some say 5.56 has better real world effect.
wally
Member
How long ago? I was buying Galil Orlite mags for my Saiga .223 for $10 each, good luck now!
At the same ammo cost, I prefer shooting 7.62x39 over .223 -- much easier to see the holes in the target
Wolf 7.62x39 in my 7.62 AR shoots much tighter groups than does Wolf .223 in my AR, and better than 7.62 or .223 in my Saigas.
So far I've been very impressed with my AR 7.62x39 except for the magazine issue.
--wally.
Click Click Boom
Member
I found the Circle 10 mags today for that price!
MD_Willington
Member
Depends who's making them... Arsenal let their QC slip and some of those were an absolute bear..
My Saiga works fine, I have used Barnaul 5.556 and Barnaul .223 in it, no problems.
Now there is a new company making an AR mag adapter much like the IMI Galil AR mag adapter.
The makers of the adapter post on the Saiga 12 forum.
My Saiga works fine, I have used Barnaul 5.556 and Barnaul .223 in it, no problems.
Now there is a new company making an AR mag adapter much like the IMI Galil AR mag adapter.
The makers of the adapter post on the Saiga 12 forum.
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