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What are these creases in the case?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by 16in50calNavalRifle, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. 16in50calNavalRifle

    16in50calNavalRifle Member

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    Hope this photo shows what I'm asking about.

    Four CBC (Companhia de Cartuchos Brasileiros, once-fired nickel-plated .357Mag brass from Magtech 158g ammo) cases that I just reloaded with 125g TCJ flat-points.

    Note the small creases around the waist of the cases. It does not extend all the way around on any of them - the length varies from 180 degrees to about 240 degrees of the circumference.

    This is the first I've seen of this. I've done about 250 rounds of this loading.

    So should I pull these bullets, salvage the primers and powder, and trash the cases, or not worry about it?
     

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  2. joneb

    joneb Member

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    That looks like way to much crimp.

    Are you sure those are 125gr and not 180gr bullets ?
     
  3. 16in50calNavalRifle

    16in50calNavalRifle Member

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    Well I am playing with different degrees of crimp, but content to do so (these and others with different crimp have functioned just fine). They are 125g, no question. Only question for now is those creases in the mid-section.
     
  4. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    You over crimped them, which caused them to buckle. I've done this a couple times. If they will chamber, they will iron out and be fine for future reloadings. But if they won't chamber, you will need to pull the bullets and then run them back through the resizing die to iron the buckle out enough to load. Don't expect the resizing die to completely take all of the buckle out, that will happen when you fire them.

    You should be able to take the depriming and expander works out of your resizing die. This will prevent you form having to remove the primer. And by all means, save and reuse the powder as well.

    A word on case prep to help prevent future probelms of this type. Make sure all of your brass is trimmed to the same length. And when crimping, be careful about not doing a repeat, this is accomplished by adjusting the crimp in small increments until you've found the sweet spot.

    This is a very good time to develope some attention to detail safe guards so you can reduce the number of mistakes to just 1 or 2 rounds, instead of 250 rounds.
     
  5. 16in50calNavalRifle

    16in50calNavalRifle Member

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    thanks, gamestalker. Actually I realized it's more like 350 rounds, and these are the only examples of this issue. Cost/benefit (measured in time, not $$$) of trimming my handgun brass looks unattractive, so another idea is to sort out the CBC cases, and adjust the dies to seat/crimp them differently. I already do this for S&B 9mm brass (primer pockets are troublesome) and my SPP 45ACP brass, and I think I've only got a box or two of the Magtech .357 brass in the pile. So I'll just do small batches within the overall production run.

    I've done all sorts of different crimps and even some variation in seating depth with this load (including just a taper) - all fired just fine and performed the same as far as I could tell. I've opted for the roll crimp just so as not to worry about set-back. The copper jacket is actually fairly thick so deformation of the bullet is limited, and in any case I don't care, it's snubby ammo for practice at short ranges.

    They chamber without difficulty. Beyond identifying the cause of the crease, I was mostly interested in whether they were safe to shoot.
     
  6. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    Well I'm glad they fire OK for you. But FYI, crimping longer cases such as .38 spcl, 357 mag, 44 mag, you get the idea, can present buckling, not to mention light crimps, if you don't trim the brass to same lengths. Auto loading handgun cartridges don't really get crimped, but more so just need the mouth formed back to normal after belling them.
    When properely trimmed, long walled wheel gun brass is trouble free during the crimp phase once the die is adjusted correctly.
     
  7. Joe's

    Joe's Member

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    16in50calNavelRifle,
    Next time back out the crimp die a couple turns so it won't contact the case. Set your seating die stem to give proper OAL. Seat all of the bullets. Back out seater and then screw the crimper portion of the die down to add the desired crimp to the case mouth in a separate operation. I have found this eliminates all chances of having a buckled case as in your pictures. Very surprised they will even chamber.

    Hope this helps,
    Joe's
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    If they will chamber, you can fire them. The cases will probably give up sooner than your other cases.

    As posted, the problem is too much crimp, which buckled the cases. They must have been the longest cases in the batch.

    It is a good idea to trim revolver cases that could be getting a roll crimp, especially if you are using a strong crimp, to avoid things like this, and keep the crimp consistent from round to round.
     
  9. sugarmaker

    sugarmaker Member

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    looks like powder compression and crimp working together. compressed powder will bulge just below the bullet.
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    It is not from power being compressed.
     
  11. Grumulkin

    Grumulkin Member

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    If you buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die, you'll get a good crimp without collapsing cases.
     
  12. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!










    The infallible LFC Die may have finally found a problem to solve!
     
  13. 16in50calNavalRifle

    16in50calNavalRifle Member

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    jcwit - laughing here!

    Actually I have the 4-die sets, so I already have the Lee FCD. So far I have only used it with 9mm and 45ACP and jacketed bullets, every 10 or so rounds, just to confirm the rounds are being crimped properly. I also like the option to use the FCD as a separate crimp die, by backing out the seater die all the way - have not found a need for that approach yet, however.

    But sorting headstamps and separating out the CBC cases should take care of this. I looked through my .357 brass and I have 5 or 6 different headstamps. All of them work fine with the current settings, aside from the CBC (which do measure longer than the rest). Looks like the "sort by headstamp" contingent here on THR may be right, after all ....

    Sugarmaker, Walkalong is correct, there's no powder compression going on. In fact 6.2 grains of Silhouette looks positively lonely way down there in the bottom of the case - and I have to remove each case from the ram before seating to visually check for a charge (Trail Boss would solve this, but we have already settled that question in another thread).

    gamestalker and Walkalong, your point is well taken about case length. As I will probably have to start trimming for 30 carbine anyway, perhaps I will trim my .357 after all. So far these 4 cases are the only ones to show a problem. In many hundreds of 38spl rounds, no issues. In general I go for a minimum crimp to prolong brass life, just went a bit heavier in these to make them a little hardier for the snub-nose's recoil environment.

    Thanks to all for your input.
     
  14. JohnM

    JohnM Member

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    I've never seen a bulge quite like that before.
    Does it appear when the bullet is seated?
    If it not I'd suspect crimping.
     
  15. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    The seating die does not have case support, remember, crimping only requires the slightest amount of pressure.

    Adjusting the die to crimp: Adjust the die to the mouth of the case then adjust for crimp, again, an adjustment is but a hint of adjustment after contact, but first, the seater plug/stem must be adjusted for seating depth first, after the seater is adjusted, raise the stem then adjust for crimp, after adjusting for crimp lower the stem until it makes contact with the bullet, then STOP! Secure the die lock ring and stem jam nut.

    Not a fix for your squatted case, I use a full length sizer die to crimp 45ACPs for 2 45 that like store bought, new, over the counter ammo, I would warn you against the practice, not a promise but your cases could separate it the case separating is easier than the crimp opening up when the bullet is released. This happened to a friend, he was?is not interested in determining the cause, he decided he was going to shed some bad habits.

    F. Guffey
     
  16. altitude_19

    altitude_19 Member

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    No need to sort them out of the batch. Pull the bullet and measure them. I'm betting they're longer than average (357 can vary HUGELY in case length for some reason). That causes the same effect as if the die were screwed in a few more turns. Trim them to uniform length with the rest of your cases and all will be well. Yes, firing them will iron out those wrinkles after a couple trips to the range.
     
  17. 16in50calNavalRifle

    16in50calNavalRifle Member

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    Thanks again to all for their input. I am fairly sure I have a mere handful of these CBC cases in all my hundreds of .357 cases. I might trim them, but it might be easier to just do a separate batch with a slightly re-adjusted seater die. Whichever is quicker and easier gets the nod. I don't find doing a few dozen SPP 45ACP that big a deal in my larger runs of the caliber, this will be similar. My volume and pace of shooting are not such that doing a few specialty loads within my basic calibers is any big deal.
     
  18. altitude_19

    altitude_19 Member

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    Does that mean you measured them? Were they longer than the others?
     
  19. Eb1

    Eb1 Member

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    Sometimes straight wall brass should be trimmed. I don't trim every time I load them, but I do measure them, and if they are way over length I trim them and load the 44 Magnum.
    I haven't seen a bulge that far down before.

    I prefer roll crimps with Magnum pistol cartridges to the LFCD. I only use the Lee die when loading 30-30.
     
  20. joneb

    joneb Member

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    jc, do you really think the LFC die could iron those out ? :D

    I reload to save money, as a added benefit I can reload ammunition that is more accurate and more reliable than most factory ammunition. It is discouraging that a reloader can bypass proper protocol and just use a magic die to jimmy-rig a round into chambering :confused:
     
  21. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

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    he wasn't saying that it will fix those creased cases, but that it will prevent them from occurring in the first place.

    seems that the OP's problem was caused by inconsistent case length. he crimped with the seating die, which means that cases that are longer will get more crimp and if they're long enough, they will start to fold up like the cases in the pics. the Lee FCD is not sensitive to case length variations.
     
  22. joneb

    joneb Member

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    Sorry, I just trim my brass to the same length as I do not own a LFCD
     
  23. joneb

    joneb Member

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    So NeuseRvrRat, how does one get a consistent roll crimp to the bullet cannalure and consistent case neck tension with the LFCD using brass of various lengths ?

    A old reloader would like to know.
     
  24. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

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    you follow the directions in the box with it
     
  25. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    The FCD for rifles is a collet type "stab" crimp, for lack of a better word, where it squeezes straight in at 90 degrees from the case, so it is insensitive to case length as far as buckling cases from to heavy a crimp from a normal crimp die.

    The FCD for pistols crimps like any other crimp die, but the part that crimps is not built in to the die body, it is a separate piece that screws into the die body. It is kept still by an o-ring. It is slightly more forgiving of case length due to the stretch of the 0-ring, but it too can buckle really long cases.

    The carbide ring in the FCD for pistols might iron out the buckle a bit, but I would much prefer not buckling the case to begin with, so I trim cases like .38 and .357 where the cases can be a wide range of lengths.
     
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