Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by natedog, Aug 8, 2003.
Besides never knowing if you are going to get a one, two or three round burst when you press the trigger, the cam set up gives three distinct trigger pulls on semi auto, making accurate fire difficult.
Very little of what was changed between the M16A1 and M16A2 was actually an improvement.
I have fired subguns including the Thompson, M3, MAC, Madsen M50, Reising, Beretta M38, a Glock converted to FA, plus AR18, M16, and M14. I was able to fire short bursts from most of them (the MAC being the exception) with just a little familiarity time.
I also think the three-round burst control is a solution to a problem that training can solve.
only is a lousy idea and the method the A2 uses to get the burst sucks. I like guns with burst and full-auto capability and H&K's burst mechanism has excellent trigger pull in semi-auto.
It wasn't invented for recoil problems, it's supposed to cure full auto spray-n-pray behaviour which was commonplace in 'Nam. It's a great way to burn up ammo but a lousy way to hit the enemy.
Sure is fun in peacetime, though!
Agree with the comments about training. I favor a well trained small force as opposed to a large, cannon fodder approach.
My opinion is that is helps conserve ammunition and allows for more accurate high-volume fire. Any disadvantages others have mentioned are unlikely to impact the average soldier. Full auto is fine for LMG/GPMGs, but it's not necessary on an infantry rifle.
Which is a recoil problem, right?
Controlled accurate fire is what semi-auto is for. Might as well not put the burst on at all if that's your point. Full auto, much better, but it should only be used up close. Tell someone in close quarters combat fighting from house to house that they shouldn't be allowed full auto because it burns up too much ammo....
This topic really annoys me everytime it comes up...
The problem with the 3 shot burst concept is that you've got a more complicated firing mechanism. More to jam, break or clean. More parts to keep on hand too. Full auto by comparison is very simple & clean to work with.
However, part of the reasoning that semi-auto fire is preferred is probably due to the fact that ammo dicipline is especially important to the more elite troops. These guys tend to travel light due to the types of missions and types of transportion methods they use (ie, HALO drops into water or rapelling off a chopper, etc).
Fire discipline is important to all troops. When I was a rifle platoon sergeant in a Guard light Infantry company, you couldn't get any more low speed high drag, but we only used full auto fire in a break contact drill, to gain fire superiority after making contact and in the initial stages of an ambush. Other then that it was semi only with a couple different rates of fire for that. This was with M16A1s.
Hard to do suppressive fire with three-round bursts, when you have a whole lot of other things on your mind. Yeah, it's easy to say, "But, all ya gotta do is keep pulling the trigger!", but even that's a distraction at a nasty moment...
I'm purely guessing that the three-round burst would be less of a problem in open-country warfare--but maybeso a bummer in clearing buildings.
Wondernine, in urban combat, automatic fire is not necessarily preferable. If you have civilians running about, you may wish to limit the outgoing fire, or, at least, keep it accurate. Sure, the civilians shouldn't be in the way, but, hey, they live there. Trucks dumping loads of kids, grandpas and old ladies killed by gunfire into lime-besprinkled pits doesn't do well for the psy-ops units convincing the locals that it was all for their own good and this is what creates guerillas. You can bet the enemy will make the most of out scenes like that. Staying alive also means you don't want pissed off civilians booby-trapping your humvee.
If my dumb, ham-handed a$$ can learn to do that, then there is no reason that you couldn't learn to let go after three or so rounds.
But I never got to try out my techniques when being shot at either.
I could do it under ideal conditions, but combat isn't know to be ideal.
I kinda think that they should just go back to semi-auto only on the standard rifle, and upgrade to a round between the 5.56 and 7.62.
Then spend more money on ammo.
Stick with flash bang or fragmentation grenades for house to house work.
Another point. I was one hell of a good shot before I joined the Army, but not as good once I was in.
The difference was that I was running 500-1000 rounds of .22lr a week or so downrange with my 10/22 and any other .22 I could get my hands on from about age 14 until I left for basic. I could pick flowers at about 50 yards with an open sighted gun most of the time just a few weeks before I left.
During the time I spent in the Army, I shot about 250 rounds through the M-16's I was issued. Making expert wasn't hard, but I was still nowhere near as good.
Perhaps we should lobby congress to create rimfire shooting clubs on every military post...
"Aye, there's the rub."--some old English playwrite.
I heard the AC556 was like that and NOT the M16A2.
3 round burst
My thoughts on the3-round burst? I would tell you, but I can't figure out how to spell the sound produced when you stick your tongue between your lips and blow!
Seriously, it is a beaurocrat's answer to a training deficiency. If the first round isn't on the target, the other two won't be either.
Somehow getting wacked on the helmet over 25 years ago did the trick.
Had to do recoil testing on sights, of the electronic type, and, having done it before, had no interest in dumping 1-2K rounds into the 25 yard berm out of a full auto A2.
So, we had a party, and the wife, and various and sundry who'd never fired full auto before, were invited. We all had a great deal of fun, except me, since it was my 50th birthday party, and, while I'm not impressed with the alternatives, I'm not at all sure I like the current situation much better!
All of them had three round bursts down within a 30 round mag, and none fired more than 5 rounds.
It ain't that hard to do, and, like wearing hats indoors, once trained, you never forget. It's a training problem, no more or less, and it doesn't make sense to complicate the tools to correct what shouldn't be a problem.
That one brings back memories. I remember how strange it felt going outside without a hat just after I was discharged.
For one, it's an extra mechanical piece, which means more chance for failure.
Another, there are three separate and distinct trigger pulls, regardless of whether it's in semi or burst, which affects marksmanship.
Third, that it has the possibility of creating a two-round burst or a one-round "burst" makes it FUBAR.
And lastly, it's a mechanical solution to a training problem, as stated before.
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