Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What causes muzzle flip/rise

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Skribs, Dec 29, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Skribs

    Skribs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,807
    Location:
    Lakewood, Washington
    I was just wondering what causes muzzle rise in a firearm.
     
  2. matrem

    matrem Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    The point of contact with the shooter being below bore center.
     
  3. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,865
    "every action has an equal and opposite reaction...."


    so essentially.....there is a force being put on the bullet by the gun.....and there is also a force put on the gun by the bullet in the opposite direction....

    since the location of that force is above your hand( which acts as a fulcrum)...the barrel rises.
     
  4. PRD1

    PRD1 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    204
    Location:
    S.E. Arizona
    The simple answer is...

    geometry. The recoil of typical firearms in which the center of the bore is located above the support (grip or buttstock) causes the arm to rotate about the lower point - the muzzle rises above the original line of fire.
    PRD1 - mhb - Mike
     
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Recoil, and to some extent, muzzle gas acting like a tiny rocket motor..

    Recoil is centered on the bore line.

    Your hand grip on a handgun, or stock against your shoulder on a long gun is below the bore line, so the recoil force pushing back forces the muzzle up.

    Pretend you are pushing a child's swing.

    It rotates around the axle at the center line of the support. (where the chains are attached at the top)
    But you push it at the bottom away from the centerline of the support, (recoil) and it rotates away and up.

    rc
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  6. matrem

    matrem Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    If you turn your gun upside down,yet hold it correctly, you'll get "muzzle drop'.
     
  7. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,404
    Location:
    Springfield, MO
    I don't think it has anything to do with the gun being held.

    It has everything to do with the line of the bore not passing through the gun's center of mass. The tangential recoil force will cause the gun to torque around its center of mass. A gun is essentially a pinwheel.

    Picture a gun free floating in space...fire it remotely. It will still rotate even though it is not held. In fact, holding a gun keeps it from rotating as much as it wants to during recoil.
     
  8. Skribs

    Skribs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,807
    Location:
    Lakewood, Washington
    I read the wikipedia page about 2 seconds after I posted this, but thanks for the answers.

    I think it's more based on the contact points, because the gun isn't pivoting around itself, it's pivoting around where you hold it.

    The main reason I asked is because for some reason I thought it had to do with the hot gasses trying to escape up, and I wondered how that would apply to a gauss rifle or rail gun. Apparently it has nothing to do with that, though.
     
  9. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,691
    Location:
    Stanwood, WA
    Here's the cure for muzzle rise:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,404
    Location:
    Springfield, MO
    Interesting hypothesis...NASA must be wrong then in having tangential jets for rotating space capsules!

    Any force not directed through the center of mass will cause torque and rotation. Basic physics.

    Did you ever put english on a billiard ball? Off center hits with the cue stick make the ball rotate, right? But no one is holding the ball.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  11. HDCamel

    HDCamel Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    796
    Location:
    Virginia
    A gun fired in mid-air without any contact will rotate around it's center of mass unless said CoM is in line with the bore which would result in it going straight back.

    However, adding a human arm (or two) into the equation completely changes the system. Contact points add fulcra to the system, each one acting as a pivot point in one direction or another.

    So it's both.
     
  12. Iramo94

    Iramo94 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    South Florida
    Would it then be called muzzle left? :rolleyes:
     
  13. Metal Tiger

    Metal Tiger Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Messages:
    141
    Location:
    Southern Cali-10-Round-fornia
    Interesting points JBAR and Camel. Glocks grip higher and closer to the barrel bore than most other autos. Another big plus for the Glock. Just a thought from a Sig Sour owner.
     
  14. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2,175
    Part of it is from the bore being above the the butt. Part of it is from how the body reacts to the recoil. Part of it is from the reciprocating mass of certain self loading rifles being above the bore. Some of it is from the reciprocating mass being forward in the rifle.

    The AR is one of the best designs for reducing muzzle rise and helping the shooter control the recoil. It's bore and reciprocating mass is inline with the bore which is just below the comb of the stock. It's reciprocating mass is also located to the rear of the rifle between the shooter's hand and shoulder.

    The stance of the shooter can be adjusted to help control muzzle rise and get back on target for a follow-up shot faster
     
  15. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,334
    Location:
    Central Fla
    For every action.........there`s a re-action.
     
  16. Tigersteel

    Tigersteel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2
    muzzle flip

    What would the reaction be shooting a Rhino revolver.
     
  17. youngda9

    youngda9 member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    877
    less muzzle rise.
     
  18. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Messages:
    9,832
    Location:
    SW Arizona
    I have magnum wheel guns that obviously produce a good bit of flip/rise. But I also have some that are compensated, and those don't jump up nearly as much. So in this respect, the gases are helping to reduce this reaction. The same is achieved with high powered rifles, such as those with compensated barrels in which recoil is reduced significantly. Another recoil reduction system that works well is mercury tubes being installed in the stock, or another spot that is latteral to the barrel.
     
  19. Cokeman

    Cokeman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2007
    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    Utah
    Serious?
     
  20. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    4,524
    I saw a demo once where a man put on a welding glove and shot a long barreled .44 Magnum while holding it by the barrel. It went straight back with no rise at all.
     
  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    12,151
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Recoil and recoil. ;)

    Rocket motors work on the principle of recoil (conservation of momentum). It's just that recoil in a rocket motor is from the movement of gases. Mass is mass when it comes to conservation of momentum. Makes no difference what state of matter it's in at the time.
     
  22. Millwright

    Millwright Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Physics and geometry, Sir ! >MW
     
  23. BobOfTheFuture

    BobOfTheFuture Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    If you look at more modern guns: The AR type rifle or the KRISS V for example, you can see the bore becoming lower and lower to be more in line with your sholder/hands. On these weapons the only muzzle rise is basically from your body being pushed back (recoil) and being pivoted on the fulcrum of your feet on the ground, or you bending at your waist. Pretty interesting stuff.
     
  24. VT Deer Hunter

    VT Deer Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Vermont
    Yep, and to put it simple the gases coming from the barrel under pressure push on you and your hand unless on top of the gun like a folcrum push it up. I put 4 fingers on the scope to prevent this and it works wonders.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page