What could be done differently -- Non-Guns Color Coded?
- Thread starter Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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This is too common to earn a Darwin award...
Airsoft is what it is. They paint the tips orange, it's not the fault of whoever changes it. BB guns don't have tips orange, but then they actually are potentially dangerous.
I use an airsoft gun at home instead of a .22 at the range for practice. Anyone with a couple of empty soda cans and a TV tray can set up a range, it's really not that difficult. And yes, I want it to be as real as possible so it is a better training aid.
As to this situation - I didn't read the article, but did he hurt anyone else, or just himself? I may sound callous, but I'm mostly concerned with the former in these types of situations. Since he had only an airsoft gun, I'll assume not.
Airsoft is what it is. They paint the tips orange, it's not the fault of whoever changes it. BB guns don't have tips orange, but then they actually are potentially dangerous.
I use an airsoft gun at home instead of a .22 at the range for practice. Anyone with a couple of empty soda cans and a TV tray can set up a range, it's really not that difficult. And yes, I want it to be as real as possible so it is a better training aid.
As to this situation - I didn't read the article, but did he hurt anyone else, or just himself? I may sound callous, but I'm mostly concerned with the former in these types of situations. Since he had only an airsoft gun, I'll assume not.
bikemutt
Member
Good points.
I just can't imagine a kid that age wanting suicide-by-cop, but if not that, what on earth could he have been thinking? Just can't believe someone being that stupid.
I just can't imagine a kid that age wanting suicide-by-cop, but if not that, what on earth could he have been thinking? Just can't believe someone being that stupid.
You could quickly slap some plywood together, cut out a blocky and generic pistol profile, paint it black. If you were brandishing it in a dark alley, I'd wager it could probably easily be mistaken for a Glock to an untrained eye.
Color coding the toys doesn't solve anything. Unless you also take black paint off the market, it's not very hard to paint over them.
Color coding the toys doesn't solve anything. Unless you also take black paint off the market, it's not very hard to paint over them.
Adding more regulations to an industry whose very vague regulations that they have to follow from the ATF will not solve anything, no more than the 10 day waiting period does in many states. If a person is intent on committing a crime, all the regulations and laws that are passed do not apply to this one individual at this time.
If laws are passed to color code non lethal weapons who is to say than you cannot camouflage your AR15 or tactical rifle with Krylon paint.
If laws are passed to color code non lethal weapons who is to say than you cannot camouflage your AR15 or tactical rifle with Krylon paint.
JRH6856
Member
A pellet gun is not a firearm, but it is a weapon and can inflict serious injury. Some are more powerful than others, but shot placement is everything and losing an eye or two is not a minor injury. So I wouldn't think they should be coded the same as non-firing training guns as they are more dangerous.
At the same time, there are already firearms out there that are all colors of the rainbow so it may be too late to color code anything.
At the same time, there are already firearms out there that are all colors of the rainbow so it may be too late to color code anything.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Threads merged.
bikemutt
Member
Yup, I think you are correct the color-coding horse has already escaped the corral.
I've got to believe every 15 year old kid in America knows by now not to bring any weapon to school, be it a Leatherman or an AK. So, maybe this kid really was that stupid.
It sounds like the family is extra upset about the shot he to took to the back of the head, but that's another story.
I've got to believe every 15 year old kid in America knows by now not to bring any weapon to school, be it a Leatherman or an AK. So, maybe this kid really was that stupid.
It sounds like the family is extra upset about the shot he to took to the back of the head, but that's another story.
JRH6856
Member
The antis have been wondering the same thing about black rifles for years.
They exist because kids are like adults. They like their toys that look like the real thing.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
Don't point things at cops. Real guns, toy guns, cell phones, pogo sticks, etc.
When I was younger one day I was carrying a very realistic looking beretta m9 co2 pellet gun "mel gibson-lethal weapon" style (mexican carry) when it was pointed out to me by an adult that if a cop sees that I'm going to get shot. Good point sir. Dumb behavior corrected.
JRH6856
Member
Had a neighbor who wouldn't let her kid have any "violent" toys. No toy guns. So one day the kid bites his peanut butter sandwich into the shape of a gun and starts playing with it. She gave up.
bikemutt
Member
The more I think about it you guys are right on, it's the behavior not the object. Why just last year we had a Seattle cop neutralize a deaf, wino woodcarver who appeared to brandish a small pocket knife and wouldn't submit to the "drop it" command. If only the knife had been blue...
beatledog7
Member
So, let's say we pass a law that says all airsoft or similar pellet guns have to be sold in crayola-like neon colors. That way everyone can tell at a glance what they are; i.e., they're not real guns.
Now enter the bad guy with a real semi-auto pistol. He knows that everybody now sees crayola-colored guns and thinks, "oh, that's just an airgun."
So he paints his evil black pistol neon green. Voila, not a real gun.
Now enter the bad guy with a real semi-auto pistol. He knows that everybody now sees crayola-colored guns and thinks, "oh, that's just an airgun."
So he paints his evil black pistol neon green. Voila, not a real gun.
Zombiphobia
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I agree that the parents should teach their children about proper weapon safety, and these obviously didn't since they can't understand why this happened.
In BCT you'll meet a lot of idiots. It shocked me how many guys there had not even the foggiest clue about basic weapon safety. "It's not loaded..' BANG.. 'it's just a gun'.. and so on and so on.
I have to admit that at first I thought the police could have probably responded differently, but considering how common school shootings have become, and how realistic many 'toy' guns are, I think they responded appropriately.
And yes, there is something to be said for 'natural selection' in this case.
In BCT you'll meet a lot of idiots. It shocked me how many guys there had not even the foggiest clue about basic weapon safety. "It's not loaded..' BANG.. 'it's just a gun'.. and so on and so on.
I have to admit that at first I thought the police could have probably responded differently, but considering how common school shootings have become, and how realistic many 'toy' guns are, I think they responded appropriately.
And yes, there is something to be said for 'natural selection' in this case.
Ultravox
Member
Rule number one: Don't point anything that even looks like a gun at a police officer.
Rule number two: If you ignore rule number one and the police officer tells you to put down whatever you are holding, you put it down.
If you break rules one and two, expect to get shot.
Yes I have children.
Rule number two: If you ignore rule number one and the police officer tells you to put down whatever you are holding, you put it down.
If you break rules one and two, expect to get shot.
Yes I have children.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
This doesn't have anything to do with firearms safety. It doesn't have anything to do with making toys less realistic so cops don't make mistakes.
It has everything to do with a young person seeking and finding a way to make a dramatic exit.
And, in this case it seems, if you DO want to get shot and end your life's troubles, break rules one and two. ("In case of emergency, break glass...")
If there were any mistakes here, they would be those of whomever was close to this boy not understanding or recognizing that he had issues that might lead to suicide.
Even so, he may have kept his inner demons so well hidden that even his parents couldn't have known their extents. He sought out a particular end and he found a way to make it happen.
That's tragic, but it shouldn't fill us with the impotent angst that drives us to find someone to blame.
I don't think this is about the gun at all. At this age, this kid has been exposed to enough reality TV and real life news to know better. His parents should have taught him better and you would think since everyone in the story says "he was such a good and smart kid" he would know better than to threaten law enforcement, or to not comply with their demands. We're not talking terrorists or an angry mob or some strange adults, with whom he may have had doubts whether or not to comply. We're talking about law enforcement. Average law abiding citizens know to comply with the LEO's in a crisis situation-even children. And if not, blame the parents. I am a parent, I have kids from 10 to 22. If my kid pointed anything resembling a weapon at police and refused to comply with their demands of surrender than I would have to accept that he/she brought this end upon themselves. Even if I couldn't understand why they put themselves in that position.
We'll never really know whether this kid's intent was to be shot (thereby committing suicide), whether he was trying to look tough in front of the other kids and not give up to authority or whatever. The bottom line (and answer to the OPs' questions) is; what could have been different is he could have complied. He could have dropped his weapon (real, fake or otherwise) and the situation would have ended without his life being taken. The question is certainly not whether or not the gun looked real or whether or not the police should have been able to tell the difference. It's irrelevant to the situation really. What could, and should have been done is the boy should have surrendered and took his lumps for doing something stupid (bringing something like that to school, assaulting another student with it and refusing to comply with the police demands of 'drop the weapon').
I say all of this as a compassionate parent. We need to teach our children to respect authority. Although I feel for the parents, blaming the police for the way they handled the situation is wrong. If this were an adult at a shopping mall with a pellet gun in the exact same scenario we wouldn't be discussing whether or not toy guns should look real or whether LEOs should be better at identifying threats. We would be talking about what an idiot the guy was and how he did it on purpose and/or should have known better. I feel badly for these parents. I also feel badly for the LEOs who had to make the difficult decision to take this action and who will have to live with what they had to do.
Bottom line is we can't protect our children by removing all the dangerous things in this world. That's like saying the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if there was no ocean. What we can do is learn from this, teach our children to know better and then hope that they put this good knowledge into practice.
We'll never really know whether this kid's intent was to be shot (thereby committing suicide), whether he was trying to look tough in front of the other kids and not give up to authority or whatever. The bottom line (and answer to the OPs' questions) is; what could have been different is he could have complied. He could have dropped his weapon (real, fake or otherwise) and the situation would have ended without his life being taken. The question is certainly not whether or not the gun looked real or whether or not the police should have been able to tell the difference. It's irrelevant to the situation really. What could, and should have been done is the boy should have surrendered and took his lumps for doing something stupid (bringing something like that to school, assaulting another student with it and refusing to comply with the police demands of 'drop the weapon').
I say all of this as a compassionate parent. We need to teach our children to respect authority. Although I feel for the parents, blaming the police for the way they handled the situation is wrong. If this were an adult at a shopping mall with a pellet gun in the exact same scenario we wouldn't be discussing whether or not toy guns should look real or whether LEOs should be better at identifying threats. We would be talking about what an idiot the guy was and how he did it on purpose and/or should have known better. I feel badly for these parents. I also feel badly for the LEOs who had to make the difficult decision to take this action and who will have to live with what they had to do.
Bottom line is we can't protect our children by removing all the dangerous things in this world. That's like saying the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if there was no ocean. What we can do is learn from this, teach our children to know better and then hope that they put this good knowledge into practice.
JohnBT
Member
"Kids are naturally retarded."
No they aren't. Do you even know the meaning or definitions of the word? You need to develop your vocabulary.
John
No they aren't. Do you even know the meaning or definitions of the word? You need to develop your vocabulary.
John
NavyLCDR
member
Make toy guns look completely different than real guns, and somebody is going to make a real gun look like the toy to fool police with.
The problem was with the adolescent - not with the item he was holding.
The problem was with the adolescent - not with the item he was holding.
Flintknapper
Member
See post #19 for the answer folks!
Emotion aside...those are the facts.
Emotion aside...those are the facts.
3 out of 4 neighbor kids, that I've know since they were babies..were killed a couple years ago in a car accident. They were driving a Lexus IS250 at 75-80mph in a 25 mph zone in a sleepy neighborhood in Pinellas County..lost control and hit a tree. 3 were ejected from the car..one was trapped and burned to death. They were all senseless...but the one driver was a moron. Did any of them deserve to die? No! They did something very stupid..and the law of S--T happens applied. That's exactly what this boy with the pellet gun did. Did he have a death wish? Heck..we'll never know unless he left a note of some kind. If I were jumping off the roof in to a pool below...which is again...STUPID...if I missed...I'd most likely be crippled or dead. Stupidity weeds out a bunch of our kids..and it has for hundreds of years.
Parental supervision, training...correction and punishment should be paramount in a childs upbringing to help in preventing this horrible occurance. It will still happen at times however..no matter how much you give..the stupid gene comes to the surface once in a while. I'm actually surprised that I'm still alive myself when I think back on some of the assinine things I've done over the past years. In fact..If I were my son..I'd whoop his butt!
Parental supervision, training...correction and punishment should be paramount in a childs upbringing to help in preventing this horrible occurance. It will still happen at times however..no matter how much you give..the stupid gene comes to the surface once in a while. I'm actually surprised that I'm still alive myself when I think back on some of the assinine things I've done over the past years. In fact..If I were my son..I'd whoop his butt!
FFI,even if they started making these toy and pellet guns bright neon orange or some such surely you are old enough to remember they have been making replicas of modern pistols since at least the 1960's as I owned a Crossman pellet pistol of that area.
And they make them that way because they sell!!
There was plenty going on with this kid.
And they make them that way because they sell!!
There was plenty going on with this kid.
(Retard is just a simple term that older guys used to use to describe stupidity. We used to always call each other that in the old days. No harm no foul. No offense meant. Leave political correctness at the door please.)) I'll expand upon that!! Kids do some dumb ass things! NATURALLY! We ALL did as kids! This day and age..the dumb things kids do are invoking more violent reactions such as this shooting.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Look there's plenty of "harmless" old epithets we used to toss at each other when we were abrasive, ignorant kids who didn't know or speak to anyone who could have been marinalized or put down by our use of those terms.
But here our words go 'round the world and represent the entire communtiy of responsible firearms owners. That's a little different from being a member of a homogenous gang of redneck rugrats who's words don't matter at all, and who don't "know no better."
How 'bout we leave ALL OF THOSE TERMS at the door, along with our political correctness? Thanks.
But here our words go 'round the world and represent the entire communtiy of responsible firearms owners. That's a little different from being a member of a homogenous gang of redneck rugrats who's words don't matter at all, and who don't "know no better."
How 'bout we leave ALL OF THOSE TERMS at the door, along with our political correctness? Thanks.
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