What dangerous game is too big for shotgun slugs?

[JohnBiltz]

What dangerous game is too big for shotgun slugs? I have read the thread on setting standards for hunting rifles and I was curious, what game would be too big for a shotgun slug? I really have no idea but am curious. Not talking about hunting here, more of an animal attack self defense gun.

 

[Mauser lover]

Orcas. Penetration under water is lacking.

Are you dealing with the North American continent? I would feel very comfortable with trusting a 12 gauge slug all the way up to grizzlies, if we are dealing with animal attacks. I wouldn't choose it for hunting, but it is tough to argue that nearly 3/4 inch is too small for self defense against just about anything in N. America.

I know absolutely nothing about cape buffalo, so I'm not going to speculate about the performance of a 12 gauge slug there.

Don't forget to practice with your slugs!

 

[hdwhit]

Mauser lover wrote:
Orcas. Penetration under water is lacking.

I also guess even if you shot one while jumping out of the water after a seal, a 12 ga. slug wouldn't be all that effective.

I gotta agree with Mauser lover; a 12 ga. slug is going to make an impression that cannot be ignored on anything you shoot with it. Plus, it offers the versatility of being able to handle buckshot and birdshot should the need arise.

My father used to keep his 20 ga. shotgun loaded with two slugs and three rounds of #3 buckshot so the buckshot were the first three rounds fired. He figured even if he was panicked and his aim a little off, the buckshot would be enough to stop - or at least slow down - an attacker and the slugs would be available to finish the job.

 

[DDDWho]

I think this thing could take out about any animal on the planet. I read somewhere one of these went through an engine block

http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/magnum-crushtm/

 

[tark]

I'm not a hunter, I admit that up front. I can only regurgitate what actual hunters have written and the knowledge if the hunter's I know personally. Those in the latter category have told me they would feel adequately armed with a 12 gauge slug gun against large bears. As a stopper gun for a charge, but they would not hunt with it as their primary weapon. Since they don't carry two guns at a time, they all agreed to just carry a rifle big enough to do the job in the first place. Since you are anticipating a self-defense scenario I suppose what they said would be an endorsement. They all suggested an autoloader, with at least a five round capacity.As far as African game goes, one of the men in my cigar club has hunted there extensively and the following information comes from him.

Most African Professional hunters agree that A 12 gauge slug is near ideal to put down a charging leopard. They hunt the cat with a rifle, of course, but they switch to a shotgun (invariably a 12 ga.) with slugs to follow up a wound cat. Some prefer buckshot, some abhor it. A big male leopard weighs 150 pounds. A huge one will go 180.

Lions are three times that size and slugs don't do the job. Dave's PH prefers the biggest elephant rifle he has, with soft point ammo. Has to be a double barrel, no bolt guns. Too slow on the second shot.

Elephant and buffalo are out of the question. Nobody hunts Rhino's anymore, that I know of, but they would be in the same category.

 

[Mauser lover]

Out of curiosity, would anyone hunt dangerous but "soft" game like lions with a bayonet fixed? Just in case?

Again, I know absolutely nothing about hunting in Africa. Or Europe for that matter. Or Australia, or Asia. Or South America. Basically nothing other than the "normal" North American aminals, really! Just curious.

 

[kudu]

Out of curiosity, would anyone hunt dangerous but "soft" game like lions with a bayonet fixed? Just in case?

The problem is they can reach further with their claws than you can with the bayonet.

Accuracy with slugs is the major issue, unless you have a dedicated slug gun tuned to a particular load. Yes it will kill about anything, if you hit it in the right spot. Large soft ball of lead flattens out and reduces penetration on the big game that have skin and hide over 1 inch thick. Velocity falls off quickly after 50 yards or so also. I hunted plains game in Africa, but my friend shot a Cape buff with a .416 Weatherby and 400 grain bullets. He made it through the buff and broke a shoulder, got the heart and lung and the bullet was in the skin on the off side. If a shotgun slug hit the shoulder it would of stopped and made the buff angry.

Anything in N. America can be killed with a slug, but if I were hunting grizzly or brown bear I would so much prefer a good rifle.

 

[RPZ]

Never hunted dangerous game. Based on the writings of professional hunters, and the experiences of individuals who have hunted dangerous game, I would say that they would be good for any dangerous animal in North America you can hit them in the vital zone with provided you are using something like Brenneke slugs in a 12 gauge. Except Grizzly, Brown and Polar bears. For these something like a .375 H&H (give or take) on up.

 

[22250Rem]

Only things I ever used slugs on were Whitetail Deer. For 30-something years now; "Back in the day" it was all the Foster style slugs until about 2001 when I got my first rifled barrel for Sabot style slugs. I'm not sure which slugs the OP refers to but in my experience I'd bet slugs would work on almost anything in N. America except the big bears. Within their range they are devastating but they start to lose velocity at greater distance. It also seems that the Sabot style slugs penetrate better, as they are a smaller diameter than a Foster style slug, ( the sabot falls away shortly after leaving the muzzle) and they don't mushroom up and stop as quickly as Fosters. Either one would keep me happy on deer or even black bear as long as it's not over 100 yds. or so, beyond that it's rifle time.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Out of curiosity, would anyone hunt dangerous but "soft" game like lions with a bayonet fixed? Just in case?

Again, I know absolutely nothing about hunting in Africa. Or Europe for that matter. Or Australia, or Asia. Or South America. Basically nothing other than the "normal" North American aminals, really! Just curious.

The Maasai Hunt Lions with a spear. It's a right of passage into manhood.

 

[sappyg]

If I were to intentionally hunt dangerous game it wouldn't be with a shotgun. Killing and stopping the animal are two different things. Most anything can kill but I guess the real issue is stopping the animal as quickly as possible.

Can't really answer the OP any better than that. If it can kill you and weighs near 400 lbs or more I would likely consider the 12 gage slug too much of a compromise.

 

[jmr40]

Actually slugs are well down on the list for any dangerous game. I'd not use one on a 200 lb black bear unless I had no other options. Most any rifle round and most magnum handgun bullets would be a better option. The Alaska Fish and game did a test several years ago with most of the commonly available cartridges for large bear defense. Slugs performed very poorly in their tests.

 

[RPRNY]

A good hard slug will do for any creature in the lower 48. If you place it in the vitals. As a close defense weapon, it will serve well if one can get reasonable accuracy from the shotgun. But it certainly wouldn't be my first choice were I hunting dangerous game. I would prefer something with more standoff capability and greater accuracy at distance.

 

[huntsman]

I think a T-Rex might cause me to question my choice of a SXS with Brenneke classic magnums.

 

[mjsdwash]

I would not want to fight a big bear, though many have, and while in grizzly land, I only carried a .357 Marlin rifle, but if you want to go up against everything but the pachyderms, theres this. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...n-12-gauge-3-1-2-1-3-8-oz-sabot-slug-box-of-5

 

[entropy]

North America: 12 ga slug. Africa: big double rifle, .375 H&H minimum. The only thing I could see a 12 ga. slug not taking out of the fight in N. America would be a charging musk ox, because the target area on it is so small, and very well protected. The odds of being charged by a musk ox while not hunting them? Astronomical.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I understand about ethical hunting, but defending yourself has nothing to do with that. Shooting something several times is fine for self defense, not so much hunting.

My biggest questions is of course penetration through dense muscle and bone or penetrating the skull of something with its head down coming straight at you. A nice shot through the lungs or both shoulders is not really the question. That is a hunting shot not a shot you get from a charge.

Lots of large bears have been killed with slugs. And please note I said slugs not slug. But while slugs do a lot of damage I would be surprised if they get much penetration as they flatten out. So, yeah, cape buffalo, rhino and elephant I figured from the start was out of the question. But I also figured if you can kill a bear with a slug it would kill a lion. They are quite a bit larger and generally pretty well armored with fat and thick skin. But like I said, all conjecture.

Its all well and good to talk about a double rifle chambered in .416 Rigby, but who actually owns one and its a bit expensive to get one just for a trip to the woods. But just about everyone owns a shotgun.

 

[eastbank]

the remington 12ga 3" magnum saboted copper solid slug moving at close to 2000 fps out of a rifled barreled will go clean thru a large bear at under 100 yards. you can not compare the foster slugs of old to a new saboted solid copper slug. i have a friend who has built a older remington 1100 12ga 3" magnum with a 4x scope for hunting in shogun only zones and it will shoot 3-4" three shot groups if you can stand the recoil. eastbank.

 

[huntsman]

^ yeah I'm a big fan of the 20 gauge copper solid so I can see the 12 doing it, I've only shot them out of rifled barrels and prefer a single shot for deer.

 

[Jason_W]

I understand about ethical hunting, but defending yourself has nothing to do with that. Shooting something several times is fine for self defense, not so much hunting.

My biggest questions is of course penetration through dense muscle and bone or penetrating the skull of something with its head down coming straight at you. A nice shot through the lungs or both shoulders is not really the question. That is a hunting shot not a shot you get from a charge.

Lots of large bears have been killed with slugs. And please note I said slugs not slug. But while slugs do a lot of damage I would be surprised if they get much penetration as they flatten out. So, yeah, cape buffalo, rhino and elephant I figured from the start was out of the question. But I also figured if you can kill a bear with a slug it would kill a lion. They are quite a bit larger and generally pretty well armored with fat and thick skin. But like I said, all conjecture.

Its all well and good to talk about a double rifle chambered in .416 Rigby, but who actually owns one and its a bit expensive to get one just for a trip to the woods. But just about everyone owns a shotgun.

It really depends on the slug. I once shot a Brenneke classic magnum through 4" of hardwood boards and while it rounded out, It did not flatten. The inexpensive foster style slugs you get great deals on at Wal Mart are really designed for thin skinned medium game and possibly personal defense. The alloy is so soft, that at very close range impacts on gel, they will often transform into a jagged, curved line of lead and may not even penetrate 12".

When you start getting into specialty slugs, the game changes a lot. I once experimented a bit with an all brass slug made by a small Greek firm. Those things were amazing in terms of penetration. The problem was that they didn't have any load data for powders available in the US, so I was improvising and never came up with a load that yielded acceptable accuracy.

It's best to look at slugs with a similar lens you'd look at .22 centerfires for medium game. There's a big difference between a 40 grain varmint bullet and 62 grain barnes TTSX.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Opening Post: "... Not talking about hunting here, more of an animal attack self defense gun.

I think a shotgun with 2 3/4" 12ga 1oz rifles slug at velocity for hunting North American big game (such as the Win Super-X I tend to find everywhere) would be adequate for NA bears and comfortably overkill for less predator attacks.

I would avoid the reduced recoil military/police rounds that are for anti-personnel use. I might keep some minishell slugs in a single or double barrel if my concern was only coyotes or feral dogs. For self-defense against animal attack (think worst case, think bear) I would not want less than a big game hunting round because I would not want to count on making multiple hits under predator attack.

ADDED: When on the family mountain property ATVing or hiking, we always actively maintained awareness and a bear avoidance posture. Bears from a safe distance are awesome to watch.

 

[Jason_W]

We might also consider that there's more to the shotgun with slugs for dangerous game defense than what the slugs themselves can do.

A shotgun is a wonderful multi-tool that can do any job adequately albeit imperfectly at times. It makes sense to have one, in a wilderness situation where one might end up having to survive in the wild for a bit. Most of the edible game you're likely to encounter in woods is going to be of the small variety. I'd much rather have a gun on me that can fling shot at a rabbit than a .375 H&H that will scatter pieces of that rabbit to all corners of Earth (cue the person who is such a great shot that they can score a perfect headshot on small game every time with a dangerous game rifle). Just by changing ammo, you have a gun that will work for small game, big game, and defense against predators of both the four and two-legged variety. Sometimes it's better to have a Leatherman than the worlds best screwdriver.

Additionally, a good reliable shotgun can be had for fairly little money. I've yet to see something in .375 H&H, .416 Rigby etc. that isn't 4 figures or approaching it. Then there's the matter of spending what, $2-$5 every time you pull the trigger.

 

[kBob]

Bayonets and critters? Well if you live in an area with a Jack-a-lope colony then by all means affix a bayonet. Those things are known to charge when wounded or annoyed and that terminal upward bound can leave embarrassing wounds.

I joke with the wife about getting some of the Benneke type slugs, I have a bunch of foster types already, but as other have said they are soft and of light construction compared to the Benneke types. I joke about this as there are circus animal retirement places near us in three directions that have elephant and big cats (also camels which are a bit nasty). Also the "Nautalus" exercise machine guy that owns Jumbo Air used to collect rhinos about 40 miles away to the south.

 

[natman]

Large soft ball of lead flattens out and reduces penetration on the big game that have skin and hide over 1 inch thick. Velocity falls off quickly after 50 yards or so also. I hunted plains game in Africa, but my friend shot a Cape buff with a .416 Weatherby and 400 grain bullets. He made it through the buff and broke a shoulder, got the heart and lung and the bullet was in the skin on the off side. If a shotgun slug hit the shoulder it would of stopped and made the buff angry.

You're quite right about the relatively poor penetration of soft lead slugs, which is why a harder slug like a Brenneke is better for any serious use. The last thing you need when starting out with a 3/4" slug is expansion.

 

[Sunray]

"...a charging leopard..." Kitty is hunted with .270's or 7mm's, but most African countries require a .375 H&H as minimum.
"...skin and hide..." Same thing. It's more about the bones and the mass of muscle some big beasties have. An elephant's hide can be 2.5 to 3 cm thick. That's an inch thick, but mostly on its back and sides. And an elephant will actively hunt and stomp you into a red smudge so no slugs for Dumbo.
In any case, nothing will stop a PO'd beast unless you can hit it and destroy its central nervous system. That means breaking the neck, that's moving way faster than you ever will.
"...camels which are a bit nasty..." They spit and kick. As well as expelling other noxious gases. Mind you, so do horses.