What Do People Mean By “Sub-MOA” Gun

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DMW1116

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I know what that technically means, but when I see people say they have a sub MOA rifle or load, what are they saying?

For example, do they mean they shot several groups and the average was under 1 MOA? Did they shoot one or two groups that were under 1 MOA? Or do they mean they have shot their rifle or pistol every week for months or years and it’s never shot over 1 MOA? The answer may be all of the above, depending on who you’re talking to at the time.

Is there a common definition from the NRA or NSSF? Some rifle manufacturers offer a 1 MOA guarantee but to my knowledge they don’t all define it the same way any more than individuals do.
 
DMW1116 said:
I know what that technically means, but when I see people say they have a sub MOA rifle or load, what are they saying?

For example, do they mean they shot several groups and the average was under 1 MOA? Did they shoot one or two groups that were under 1 MOA? Or do they mean they have shot their rifle or pistol every week for months or years and it’s never shot over 1 MOA? The answer may be all of the above, depending on who you’re talking to at the time.

Is there a common definition from the NRA or NSSF? Some rifle manufacturers offer a 1 MOA guarantee but to my knowledge they don’t all define it the same way any more than individuals do.
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It depends on the individual and the conversation (and often whether the statement can be verified).
 
DMW1116 said:
I know what that technically means, but when I see people say they have a sub MOA rifle or load, what are they saying?
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When I hear it from most people, I figure at some point they have shot a group where the total number of shots were inside an inch at 100 yards or they would be more specific.

If someone shot a 10" 1000 yard group, I figure they would say that instead of "Sub MOA".

If a mfg claims that, just google them to see what their standard is. If it is a guarantee it will be in writing or its not really a guarantee.

87332291-0A50-4FAE-AC17-728DAA9D533C.jpeg
 
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For some it is a dream. For others, a fabrication. Working in a shop for years I learned that every gun someone was trying to sell was a "tack driver". As a shooter, I learned that to have a repeatable, sub MOA rifle requires the minimization of all variables possible, great conditions, a fantastic set of eyes, nerve control, patience, and a fair amount of luck.
I irritated a few when they told some far fetched tale of accuracy with their stock 94 and that I'd pay fifty bucks to see that. When they'd ask if I was accusing them on being a liar, I'd honestly say, " No, that since I've never seen anything like it, I'd gladly pay to see it.
I also diligently read Precision Shooting and know that there are fantastic guns and shooters out there. I've shot some sub MOA groups in my life but know I'm not normally that good nor can I do it on command. Not now at 80, and not often before, but my brother was close, years back.
 
PapaG said:
As a shooter, I learned that to have a repeatable, sub MOA rifle requires the minimization of all variables possible, great conditions, a fantastic set of eyes, nerve control, patience, and a fair amount of luck.
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With modern rifles I would put ammunition very high on the list.

These two groups were shot from a $299 (after rebate) Savage 112, 5 shots at 300 yards.

Using cheap 55 gn fmj.

9AD35897-C80B-4C36-821F-88B381BCEDC5.jpeg

and a decent JHP.

999BE356-3E19-4E36-B8CD-CA5C39E2EA68.jpeg

I have seen a number of modern firearms, even inexpensive ones, that shoot very well with good ammunition.
 
For me, it means that the great majority of the time the gun will hold a sub-MOA group regardless of group size. Every shooter pulls a round now and then and sometimes the wind is too unpredictable to hold reliably. These are one-inch squares on the targets. This is a 6.5 Creedmoor out of a Savage Axis II. Both guns will shoot all day like this and half of the 3 or 5 shot the groups with these loads are 1/2 MOA or smaller.

On edit: I previously posted two pics and realized one was mislabeled.


IMG_5113 copy.JPEG

On Edit:

These are out of the Ruger RPR in 6.5 PRC. I test loads with 3, 5 and 10 shot groups and this was the beginning of that process. Here, I had just decided the best powder charge for this gun was 56.7 grains of Retumbo and I started working on seating depth. I tested Ramshot Magnum, H1000 and Retumbo before settling on Retumbo. I really wanted H1000 to be the best, but I never found a consistently accurate charge. I have to be able to shoot multiple 10 shot sub-MOA groups before I decide its good enough to load in bulk. My load development method isn't the most economical but once I identify a load there isn't a lot of variance in my results over time. Most of the time I find the rifle, scope and load are more capable of holding MOA accuracy than I am.

56.7 Gr Retumbo Jan 25 (3).JPG
 
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That's pretty good for a 10-shot group. Just in the last couple of months, while trying several hand loads in various AR rifles, it's become clear there are levels to this. All my rifles will throw out 3/4" to 7/8" groups from time to time. There is however a long bridge between a rifle that averages 1" or less and a rifle that never shoots over 1". None of the loads I have will do it over a 10-shot string, even when I let the barrel cool between shots and do something like 3+3+4.
 
DMW1116 said:
That's pretty good for a 10-shot group. Just in the last couple of months, while trying several hand loads in various AR rifles, it's become clear there are levels to this. All my rifles will throw out 3/4" to 7/8" groups from time to time. There is however a long bridge between a rifle that averages 1" or less and a rifle that never shoots over 1". None of the loads I have will do it over a 10-shot string, even when I let the barrel cool between shots and do something like 3+3+4.
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Thanks! It can take a lot of time and effort (not to mention powder, primers and bullets) to develop a truly accurate load. It's not uncommon for me to use 2-300 rounds in load development for a gun that just doesn't seem accurate. I've only given up on a couple of guns.
 
I will say I don’t take any stock in a 3 shot group. Assuming POA was not adjusted, if you superimpose 10 3 shot groups, you will find your .5” average gun is a 1” gun.

It is like asking “how tall are men?”, then taking an average of 10 guys on the street. Men aren’t 5’ 8”… They range from 4’ 10” to 7’ 3”.

The only time I use 3 shot groups is initial load development when trying different powders and bullets. If the rifle shoots 3 shots at 2”, the next 7 shots aren’t going to yield a smaller group. If 3 go into .5”, then it is likely worth some experimentation. I don’t see the point in shooting 10 shot groups for initial trial.
 
Soonerpesek said:
Well then…..

I stand corrected…..

Thanks for the input….. :)
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TBH, I'd have agreed with you a few months ago. Then, I got a lesson on TMOA vs SMOA when I bought a Kestrel with Hornady's HDOF ballistic calculator installed. In set-up, you have to decide if you want to calculate using TMOA or SMOA for your gun data. TMOA, or True MOA, uses 1.047 at 100 yards and SMOA, Shooters MOA, uses 1" to simplify math of calculating holds. Not much of an issue out 500-800 yards, but once you get over 1000 yards the .047 times 10 or 12 makes a difference.
 
When I started using 10 and 20 shots to test loads, I was very disappointed for a while. However, I’ve found relief in knowing exactly how much bigger a group my rifles will shoot.

So in the Howa clip, that’s any three-shot group with premium ammo?
 
twofewscrews said:
When I say or think of a sub MOA rifle to me it means, with the right load, reasonable conditions, and a competent shooter, the rifle will produce sub MOA 5 or 10 shot groups repeatedly without fail.

YMMV
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What he said.

Though I will often say it if it shoots under a half inch at 50yds, with regards to handguns and rimfires.

The arguments for ten shot groups always make my eyes glaze over.
 
Sub MOA to me means it can and has shot groups under 1" at 100 yds. Doesn't mean it always does, or myself or another shooter wont have an off day. I do own one varmint rifle that unless I flinched, or something bad happened to distract me will always shoot sub MOA groups all day long. It's accurate enough that it's almost boring, but always makes me smile when I'm varmint hunting and it just never misses.
 
I agree with the more cynical posters. I think "MOA" usually means "Once put three rounds into an inch-and-a-half at a hundred yards, and I'm discounting the flyer".

One of Jeff Cooper's best lines was something about "...not what once happened, but what can be produced on demand". As applied to MOA rifles, that means a gun which can be counted upon to hit within a half-inch of POA at a hundred yards unless something very unusual occurs. Those guns don't grow on trees. I own a single example, and am very glad to have it.
 
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Will also add that you can hit a lot of steel with a true 2 MOA gun. I thought my 6.5 PRC was a laser until I listened to Hornady’s “Your groups are too small” podcast. An 8” gong at 400 yards isn’t a great indicator of accuracy compared to paper at 200
 
HB said:
Will also add that you can hit a lot of steel with a true 2 MOA gun. I thought my 6.5 PRC was a laser until I listened to Hornady’s “Your groups are too small” podcast. An 8” gong at 400 yards isn’t a great indicator of accuracy compared to paper at 200
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I personally think too much is made of "MOA" for most purposes. A typical hunting scenario, for example, does not require nearly so much accuracy, and it wouldn't be provable in the field anyway - there is a big difference between a concrete benchrest and a rotting log in the woods! The great majority of my rifle hunting has been done with guns in the two-to-three MOA category, which I suspect includes the majority of factory rifles to this day - and I have never missed an animal because my rifle was not accurate enough!
 
Explains it and more. But I am sure some "experts" will chime in with their opinions.

www.riflegearlab.com

Sub MOA Meaning: Explained [By an Expert]

Did you just hear about Sub MOA but aren’t entirely sure what it means? We’ll be explaining the essentials you need to know and how distance affects this…
www.riflegearlab.com www.riflegearlab.com
 
Years, decades ago old wildcat builder shot 3 shot groups working loads. When he got a group he liked in summer he put gun and ammo in sun and let get hot and shot 3 more. When I ask why he explained that gun and load would burn throats and barrels. He planned to shoot it out hunting critters not punching holes in paper. When shooting barrel burners I followed his advice. Over the years have burned my share of barrels throats and more. Got into chasing the 5000 fps mark with 22's and subcalibers and really smoked some throats. Now that is behind me. Shot a lot of paper over the years working loads, testing bullets, especially ones I made, swaged and cast. A gun that shoots true 10 shot moa, hot or cold, high humidity or dry, dead still or wind, clean barrel or fouled is rare. The egg shoots would weed out guns and shooters. Bless You
 
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