What do think about 375 HH Mag

[BigG]

Of course, H&HHunter's advice is right on for a DG rifle. My advice to get a reasonably priced push feed post 64 Model 70 is for a plinker, like myself. If I were going to Africa, I would pony up for a double. That way I would fulfill two fantasies at once.

 

[TK73]

Dear H&Hhunter:

Wow, what an impressive, comprehensive and persuading response in favour of CRF rifles. Actually, the argument started because I put up CRF to be the absolute top priority characteristic my personal DG bolt-action rifle must have and my friend laughed and me, rolled his eyes and asked "Why?". But I have read sufficiend reports by you and other authors in the past that there actually wasn't a contest. BTW, my friend who favours the SAKO 75 has never hunted dangerous game, beside an occasional European boar from a treestand, and I am confident he has never treated his M75 rifles as vigorously as to have any qualified opinion on the topic .

But his opinion doesn't matter in the least to me. I'll keep up trying to find a good Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express w/CRF in cal. .375. I think, you have a point in preferring a .375 H&H and a heavier rifle for African hunting.

I am convinced the .416 Rem. Mag. is too much gun for me at the moment and then there's that problem with ammo availability and price. No, I think, I'll pass on this. I also read about a couple of serious problems to surface with this caliber in the field (difficult bolt lift/sticky extraction because of high pressure, high spread in velocity from one shot to another, bullets prone to jump their crimp and move out past the cannelure that can cause in feeding trouble and erratic performance, especially when the ammo is older; the .416 Rem. obviously seem sto suffers from the same problem the .458 Win. has and too little powder capacity and a heavily compressed powder charge). It would be difficult to say whether I am apt to experience any of these problems with the .416 Rem. by myself if I purchase one, but I refuse to be the person experiencing this difficulties .

No, thanks, I prefer heed your original advise and get a good .375 H&H and a heavier rifle (Custom Mauser or Dakota 76) in .416 Rigby and/or .458 Lott later.

 

[tc300mag1]

I think i rember readind somewhere that a 375 and 12 gauge with slugs recoiled about the same or withing 5 pounds when recoild thust was measured

 

[H&Hhunter]

"If I were going to Africa, I would pony up for a double. That way I would fulfill two fantasies at once. "

Big G,

You sir are a sick sick man. There is definatley something wrong with you. And that sir makes me very happy.

Sound logic if I've ever heard it...

 

[schromf]

H&H

Read through some of your posts and I agree pretty much with a few exceptions.

DG rifles must be CRF I agree, what I take exception to as most factory rifles out of the box are not up to the task. The biggest single complaint has to be on feeding. Second is fragile. Your average American hunter headed to Africa where he has a guide to back him up will have different expectations than the PH.

The PH doesn't really care about finish, or pretty. He does care that his rifle is absolutly reliable, and his follow up 2nd and 3rd shots are 100%. This doesn't mean a factory rifle is incapable, it just needs work right out of the box. Most guys serious about this dump several more hundred dollars on that stock rifle to get it up to snuff so to speak. Another item is that 4 down in the mag is very prefered, this is an expensive option. Sights are another area that usually need help, especially on a lower end rifle.

I really think the best buy on these rifles is the CZ mags, but they need a lot of help, I have run some numbers and I am not sure in the long run if the Winchester isn't cheaper. At least it comes with a stock with crossbolts, and isn't going to crack under recoil. No matter what angle you work this to do a good DG, $1500 is entry, and 2K is more realistic.

Back on calibers the 375 H&H is a great round. Some others I like are the 9.3x62, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott, and the big 505 Gibbs. My next is a 404 Jeff I am pretty sure, its the current apple of my eye. But I already have 375 H&H in my rack.

 

[H&Hhunter]

schromf,

from an earlier post in this thread H&Hhunter writes,

These are the basic modifications my DG bolt guns go through:

"Restocked with a McMillian
Barrel removed trued to the action, cut, crowned, fluted, Lapped, blued and reinstalled.
Action tuned and smoothed.(meaning tuned to feed and function.)
Trigger tuned cut and polished.
Scope rings and bases lapped."

I also talk about some of the modifications a CZ needs in that post.

I agree with you no exceptions..

Both of my M-70's have over $1000 custom work done to them. A CZ or a M-70 out of the box takes about a minimum of $500.00 to make it right. I thought I was pretty clear on that point.

Funny thing though.

I've never had any feeding problems with my double what so ever..

 

[schromf]

Scope rings and bases lapped." -I want a rear peep on a heavy, but my 375 has a scope.

Action tuned and smoothed.(meaning tuned to feed and function.) -absolutely

"Restocked with a McMillian, -I am a wood stock kind of guy, but I wish you would comment in detail on this, my next I am trying to decide between the McMillian and a Serengeti Laminate, and I value opinions of been there and done it.

Trigger tuned cut and polished.- Me just give me a Timney

Barrel removed trued to the action, cut, crowned, fluted, Lapped, blued and reinstalled.- This I don't consider neccesary, but it certainly makes for a better rifle, I would rebarrel though if I went to this much effort with a Lothar Walther or a Krieger barrel. I wouldn't flute, just my personal preference. My comment on this is you have have an eye for quality and correct when you have this done, and I will be going through a similiar drill on my next.

Some things I insist on not listed:

Barrel band swing swivels. Forend mounted is the pitts
Extra recoil lug on the barrel, especailly on the big bores
Bullet proof front sight ( most factories are fragile )
deep mag box
No shotgun type safety, two position mauser flag or a Model 70 only
Back on sights, screwed down to stay on, not pressed or spit soldered on.
Double crossbolts on any real heavy

Other nice to haves:

Stainless barrrel with a black finish, or a super Parkerizing job, maybe even a new black T or gunkote over that using the park as primer.

front and rear sight platforms not soldered on, integral to the barrel is better

A good double is a little rich for my blood, or I would at miniumum have to sell a lot I like to fund it. And I don't want a bad one. But they are reliable, and desireable. Me I would rather have an original Jeffreys, or a Rigby bolt though, similar kinds of money and an original Jeff in a 404 would be the prize
in my rifle rack.

 

[TK73]

Dear tc300mag1

I think i rember readind somewhere that a 375 and 12 gauge with slugs recoiled about the same or withing 5 pounds when recoild thust was measured

I believe, I've read the same about the comparison in roughly equivalent recoil force between the .375 and 12 gauge in the past. However, my question is how often do we shoot a 12 gauge shotgun from the bench or from alternative field positions like sitting, kneeling or prone (god forbid!). From a standing position recoil force generated by a 12 ga. shotgun doesn't bother me at all, but shooting it from a bench (what for? ) is a different matter entirely.

Regards!

 

[Al Thompson]

Those of us who use a SG for hunting tend to practice from field positions with slugs. The bench is a good place to check zero.

 

[TK73]

I stand corrected with my humble head down.

It's embarrassing. Just shows my general ingorance, I guess.

Thanks, Al!

 

[H&Hhunter]

Schromf,

"Barrel band swing swivels. Forend mounted is the pitts
Extra recoil lug on the barrel, especailly on the big bores
Bullet proof front sight ( most factories are fragile )
deep mag box
No shotgun type safety, two position mauser flag or a Model 70 only
Back on sights, screwed down to stay on, not pressed or spit soldered on.
Double crossbolts on any real heavy"

I like the way you think.

My .458 Lott has the following from your list:

Barrel band
Forward extra recoil lug
AO front sight post with dog ear protectors
(deep mag box is on the list of things to do)
It's a model 70 so the safety is already there
Back sight is a an AO ghost ring screwed into the rear scope holes and loktighted in place.
It also has double crossbolts.

Both of my rifles are blued stainless, action and barrel.

As far as laminate Vs synthetic.

My .375 H&H started life as an Alsaka gun so synthetic just made sense. I was working as a bush pilot at the time and I needed a short, light rifle to fill all of my survival and hunting needs. That is why my .375H&H is fluted by the way, I was trying to lose some weight and those darn M-70's in ,375 have an absolute truck axle for a barrel. I shaved off nearly a pound of steel between shortening it and fluting it. (Looking back I should have just rebarreld it with a thiner tappered barrel.) But that's life and at the time I had a gun smith friend who did the flut and cut and crown for $100.0.That is also the reason my .375 wears a 20" barrel I needed a short rifle to fit across the back of the rear seat in my C-180, in my cool custom built rack I built and installed.

In anycase it worked out so well and shot so nice and lost so little velocity that I decided to basically duplicate it with my .458Lott except for the fluting and the barrel is 23" long. I wouldn't bob my .375H&H quite as short as I did as it is unnecessary for my current uses.

I really like the new laminated stocks I think they are very sexy but I built my Lott to be a traveling twin to my .375H&H. And I still spend alot of time in a AK with both rifles so I think the McMillian fits my needs better than the laminate. I do really like they way lamintes look but I've never tried one. The McMillian stocks are so strong and stable and are custom fit to me so I won't be changing them any time soon.

For what it's worth.

Greg

 

[formerflyer]

Another Stock Choice

I would agree with both of your lists of modifications, but I would add one to the list of stocks that might be suitable: The Hogue Overmold.

I already hear the groaning and moaning from the box seats and the balcony, so let me address those frustrations right here: the Hogue is some new nuclear-powered level of ugly, and it's wrapped in rubber. I mean, if you want a stock, get a stock. If you want a condom, get a condom. Don't mix the two.

All true, and it takes abrasions and dings easily and they can't be re-finished at all, that I know of.

But they are bomb-proof, they really stick to your hands in conditions where your hands might not be as steady as you'd like, and they are weatherproof. Also, mine seems to flex just enough under the recoil of my .458 Lott that it takes the sharp edge off the recoil, making it more comfortable to shoot than my .375 ever was, and several other DG hunters that have shot my rifle agree. We don't know why, but that stupid rubber-stocked M-70 of mine kicks less severely than any other DG rifle any of us have shot. Go figure.

Just my two cents worth, and I fully understand anybody that thinks they are too ugly to even have as a gift. I understand, because I was in that boat too, but when my rifle was being built the timing didn't allow for any other choice, and I couldn't be happier about the end result. Think of it as the "Glock" of rifle stocks. (There, that should start a fight or two!)

 

[schromf]

(There, that should start a fight or two!)

Not by me, to each his own.

I like the way you think.

H&H I was thinking something similiar, bet we could swap guns and we would be in the 95% happy mode, must be great minds think alike

 

[tc300mag1]

What does everyone thing of the 375 in a t/c Encore? its now a stock barrel from T/C ive been thinking about picking one up and wonder has anyone shot this combo?

And to research my earlyer comment i had to search the Books it was Elmer keith who said the 375h&h and 12 recoiled about the same and didnt understand why a man could go out and shoot 12 gauge at clays or ducks all day and would complaine when shooting a 375 in a heavyer gun

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hey Flyer,,

OK OK I must take a little responsibility for this Houge thing. Remember that it was I who started this silly Houge thing in the first place. BUT what you are forgetting is this.

IT may work well it may be stronger than any other stock on the planet and all that stuff BUT I had to remove mine for the following reasons. (Not to mention it was by accident and a completely blown up cracked Brown Precision that I used it in the first place as a spare tire I might add.) Much like mixing tequilla, everclear, crack and tang, while highly effective somethings just aren't meant to be.

Top ten reasons I removed my Houge.

1. So ugly bull frogs tried to mate with it.
2. Scares small African chidren worse than a rabid heyna.
3. Often used as a boat paddle by the trackers in the Kilombero.
4. Was once mistaken for a tire repair kit.
5. Was then used to patch a spare tire and driven on for a week.
6. Didn't shift aim or mar the stock one bit.
7. Elephant took it from camp and used it as a contraceptive.
8. So cheesy it made the dugga boys cry and run away.
9. When using bug spray stock gets "gummy" and soft then returns to shape later like a Stretch Armstrong toy.
10. If we showed up in camp together with these things PH would think we belong to the same rubber and lace S&M club!!

Hey Pat I'll be in HNL friday afternoon. Doing the double long layover with the Narita turn. I'll see you then lets go shoot your new toy!

Greg.

TC.

The Encore is not by anyway means or imagination a dangerous game set up. But it should shoot well, mine did. But I just can't warm up to a heavy weight single barrel rifle that is so cumbersome to reload especially quickly.

 

[tc300mag1]

I though of the slow to reload thing to .. But i wont be hnting any Dg anytime soon maybe a Blackbear which i normaly use my 300 mag for was just wanting to get into this caliber for fun i like the Big boomers ... Just like i have a 45-70 for absoultly no reason

 

[Gordon]

Please share on your experiences with your "Blown up and completly cracked" Brown Precision stock. What happened , did they stand behind it? I must say Chet Brown stuff was excellent and he completely stood behind it when he worked out of his garage in San Jose. I had a high country blow out too, and his son gave me the run around. Pretty CS for a MEGA BUCK stock!

 

[H&Hhunter]

Well let me start out by saying I don't really blame Brown for my problems. I blame myself and my know it all buddy/gunsmith.

the stock was a brown one pounder that my buddy had lying around and assured me that he could beef it up to make it work on a lott. WRONG!!!

At first he bedded the action real good and tight assuring me it wouldn't need cross bolts because he bedded it so good. WRONG!!

It split down from the back of the reciver down the top of the pistol grip to the cheek.

So my buddy repaired that and rebedded it extra strong stating that this sucker will never come apart now!! WRONG!!!


The next time it split down right were the bolthandle lays and it also cracked out all of the area around the trigger group.

I insisted on cross bolts and an additional forward recoil lug. My buddy repaired the stock and installed cross bolts but assured me that it won't need an additional forward recoil lug because it's super extra strong now. WRONG!!!

This time it blew out of the standard front recoil lug housing. It actually completley powdered the recoil lug pocket. COOL!!

So I sent the gun back to my buddy who repaired it again with extra super duper solid criptonite bedding material, oh and a forward additional recoil lug at my absolute threat of death and dismemberment. This was 10 days prior to a big buffalo hunt in Tanzania by the way. I asked my buddy if we should just go with another stock. "No way this baby's coming apart this time" he said. WRONG!!

This time she blew out both rcoil lug pockets. 7 days to the big hunt. I installed a a full length block bedded houge over mold. She never even thought about coming out of that tank.

However I am not fond of the looks or feel of a Houge so I'm having the rifle restocked into a McMillian with a full length bedding block as we speak.

This Brown stock should have never been used on this rifle. It is just to light weight. I should have insisted on a different stock and and forward recoil lug and cross bolts. My gun smith should have known better. He does now and has built 4 more of these lotts. After we got the bugs worked out they are FANTASTIC rifles.

I DO NOT blame brown Precision for this goat rope!!

My Buddy Pat (Former Flyer) used his in Zim this year it came to him as seriously squared away piece of hardware. Accurate, functional and reliable.

 

[Gordon]

Thank You very much, no it was NOT the stock makers problem. BTW , my 22oz stock on my Rem SS 700 .375 was glued in proper and is rock solid. I DID have a .350 Scout rifle, stocked by them break apart. The stock broke at wrist when I shot it (maybe 400 times) , I was told it was 'Abuse'. Chet never would have given me that %$#@!

 

[TK73]

Dear Friends:

It's slightly off topic but since we're talking technical features of DG rifles, I would like to hear your opinions on the following extra charge options offered by DAKOTA ARMS, INC., for their bolt-action M76 "Safari" and "African" model variations that I consider getting done when placing an order. Again, I am not decided on the calibers yet, but I think about acquiring either a M76 "Safari" in .458 Lott (preferred caliber) or .458 Win. Mag. (more widespread availability of ammunition) or the "African" chambered for .416 Rigby:

- Quarter Rib w/folding leafes and Banded Hooded Sights - US-$ 750.00;
- Range sight-in, incl. sight filing - US-$ 300.00;
- 2 Cross Bolts with Ebony Plugs (standard on "African"; optional on "Safari" - US-$ 200.00);
- Jewelled Bolt - US-$ 200.00;
- Color Case Hardening - US-$ 350.00 (Judgement is out on this feature, as I am basically familiar with this finish treatment but I have no idea how it looks on the M76???);
- Trap Grip Cap - US-$ 400.00 (Doesn't this feature weaken the integrity of the rifle stock's pistol grip?);
- 2-Panel Checkered Bolt - US-$ 200.00 or 3-Panel Checkered Bolt - US-$ 250.00 (actually, it's one of those options that makes the custom rifle to appear more "finished", but I wonder whether it's not even a detriment when it comes to the rifle's heavy recoil, because it might abrade the skin of the shooting hand??? Should the bolt handle remain smooth on a DG rifle?);
- Mercury Recoil Reducer - US-$ 150.00 (Does it actually work? I've seen, this feature gets inserted in the rifle stock. Doesn't it weaken the rifle stock's integrity also?)
- Dakota Dovetail Base Set - Talley TNT & QD Rings 1" or 30 mm - US-$ 50.00 (only for .416 Rigby; I'd stick to open sights for the .458 Lott!);
- Rings - Talley TNT QD Lever Lock 1" or 30 mm - US-$ 200.00 (again, only for the Rigby);
- Wood upgrade (probably Exhibition Grade Bastogne - US-$ 700.00 or Special Selection 1 Bastogne - US-$ 1,500.00);

I am trying to keep the modifications "conservative" in order to enhance the rifle's capabilities for actual field use. I don't like to have a exceptional beauty, temperamental "you're-not-fit-to-touch-me" Safe Queen, but a great real-world working rifle that's ready for any task demanding a DG rifle. I am fully aware that the final price of each rifle is going to get truly scary, and I already have a bad conscience even when only thinking about spending such a big amount of money, but I wonder whether I'll regret it someday in my dead bed unless I go ahead and do it. BTW, it may take up to six months getting a Dakota M76 rifle built.

Gentlemen, your opinions are greatly appreciated!

TK73

PS: H&Hhunter, I'll still acquire a Winchester M70 in .375 H&H Magnum. I'll get one delivered next week at reasonable price. The current distributor/wholesaler has promised to carefully choose a fine specimen for me. Unless I had already arranged that, I'd have considered a Dakota M76 "Safari" in .375 H&H Magnum instead. These rifle and chambering seem to be quite popular, as Dakota Arms Inc. has a couple of them readily available in their inventory...

 

[H&Hhunter]

TK,

All of those add ons are just profit makers for Dakota with the exception of cross bolts. I don't even like the quarter rib as I use a Ghost ring and find it FAR superior to express sights under all conditions.

As far as the 458 vs the .458Lott. I wouldn't even consider the .458win.

Here's why. The .458lott is a better round no doubt about it. But the real reason is versitility you can shoot .458win ammo through a Lott with no trouble. It's just like shooting .44spcl through a .44mag. So get the Lott and if you can't get Lott ammo just shoot Win ammo through it. I think that is a no brainer.

 

[kudu]

K.I.S.S.

Keep it simple stupid. That said, H&H pretty muched pegged most of these options as pure money makers for the company.

Now I have been to Africa, but didn't hunt the nasty stuff so I can't really advise like H&H can, but the best thing you can invest in is range time with lots of ammo and varying positions to shoot from. Get your reflexes tuned to the particular gun you are going to shoot, make it second nature.

By all means get a reliable gun first, but second get used to it.

 

[TK73]

Dear H&Hhunter and Kudu:

Thank you for your kind comments, which put everything back in proper perspective. I know, I have a disturbing urge to overdo things a little bit every once in a while. I'll follow your advise.

I wish both of you a most recreational weekend, good shootin' and "Waidmannsheil".

Best Wishes,

TK!