The Lone Haranguer
Member
Five thousand, to me, is the threshold where round count starts to be "a lot."
What do you consider "A lot of rounds"
- Thread starter Kingofthehill
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My personal M&P 9C has surpassed the 5000 round mark and I plan to shoot it a lot more. The only problems I have encountered are a weak slide stop spring (which began locking the slide back with one round in the mag at around the 5000 round mark) and a worn mag catch (which I just replaced today). Other than that I have had a total of TWO failures in all those rounds. As far as it having, "a lot of rounds" it sure doesn't show it. It still looks very much like new and it still shoots like new. If I were to buy a handgun like mine I would feel better replacing a few springs and giving the internals a good look over but other than that I would have total confidence in it.
ScratchnDent
Member
I sold my XD45, with just over 10k rounds through it, to a friend who carries it every day as a duty pistol and has put probably another 5k through it since. He trusts his life to it every day, and I'd have no qualms about buying it back and trusting my own life to it again.
jackpinesavages
member
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30,000+ is A LOT of rounds, but nothing a fresh barrel and spring can't remedy.
A "lot of rounds" varies by the shooter and the gun. If you were selling a Kel-Tec PF9 with 1300 rounds through it, that's one thing. An XD with 1300 rounds through it is another.
With that said, the flip side of the coin is people who ask near MSRP for used guns regardless of the round count. If I'm buying a gun from someone I don't know, any number of rounds immediately brings a number of questions to mind. What type of rounds? Steel casings with polymer coatings? What are your gun cleaning habits? Did you "fiddle" with the gun? Do you have a clue as to what you're doing when you fiddle with a gun? How was the gun stored? Is there rust on it? You get the idea.
A lot of people (apparently) purchase new guns for near MSRP and then expect to get that back out of them after any number of rounds. A good percentage of those same people get all sphincter-pained when you ask questions like those above and make an offer that is less than their asking price.
I'm not saying the OP is one of those people, but there seem to be plenty of them around.
With that said, the flip side of the coin is people who ask near MSRP for used guns regardless of the round count. If I'm buying a gun from someone I don't know, any number of rounds immediately brings a number of questions to mind. What type of rounds? Steel casings with polymer coatings? What are your gun cleaning habits? Did you "fiddle" with the gun? Do you have a clue as to what you're doing when you fiddle with a gun? How was the gun stored? Is there rust on it? You get the idea.
A lot of people (apparently) purchase new guns for near MSRP and then expect to get that back out of them after any number of rounds. A good percentage of those same people get all sphincter-pained when you ask questions like those above and make an offer that is less than their asking price.
I'm not saying the OP is one of those people, but there seem to be plenty of them around.
fastbolt
Member
This subject can be a bit difficult to address and there probably isn't a definitive answer that's going to satisfy everyone.
First of all, when you think about the 'average' firearm owner, it probably doesn't include folks who belong to internet firearm enthusiast forums. It's not exactly uncommon to hear how a surprising number of folks who own handguns probably still own the same original box of ammunition they bought when the gun was brand new, and there's still rounds remaining in it.
I once heard someone from a firearm company comment that marketing research indicated that the average handgun owner might not fire 500 rounds through their handgun during the entire time they owned it, meaning over the course of many years.
I have a copy of a report from a fed agency discussing testing of some service-type pistols back in the late 80's. In it is a statement that the average number of rounds estimated to be fired for training in the M9 at that time was 80 rounds per year. Also, a couple of the pistols with alloy frames being produced to meet military specifications for service life back then experienced cracked frames at 10,000 rounds (or less), but that wasn't considered unacceptable for military needs.
Now, as a firearms instructor and armorer I've had my fair share of opportunity to probably shoot more rounds than the typical non-competitive owner/shooter. I fired an estimated 45+K rounds through a single aluminum alloy framed compact I carried as an issued weapon for only a few years. I've fired many thousands of rounds through a number of other issued pistols, too.
I try to spread out the use among my personally-owned pistols. It helps reduce the wear & tear on my various guns, as well as helping keep me current with the different models I typically carry and shoot. I keep approx round counts for preventive maintenance purpose and I presently have 3 small guns which have seen in excess of 10K rounds fired through them. I've replaced some parts in them as recommended by the makers for reason of expected wear & tear of what's considered replaceable wear parts, and other parts whenever I've seen them exhibit indications that a parts replacement was in order. I don't consider any of those guns to be significantly worn out or anywhere near the end of their service lives.
I have some other pistols and revolvers which have seen even more usage over the years, too.
As long as a pistol is being properly maintained, meaning being kept clean, free of debris & contaminants and kept properly lubricated, I don't look at a gun being fired 1-2K rounds as being a "lot of rounds".
Now, if the gun had been abused and not properly maintained, and some accelerated wear, damage or even parts breakage might have resulted ... then even a relatively low round count might become a problem. Just depends.
Then, there are some pistols on the market which seemingly aren't intended to be fired as much as others.
It's still just a machine, you know.
First of all, when you think about the 'average' firearm owner, it probably doesn't include folks who belong to internet firearm enthusiast forums. It's not exactly uncommon to hear how a surprising number of folks who own handguns probably still own the same original box of ammunition they bought when the gun was brand new, and there's still rounds remaining in it.
I once heard someone from a firearm company comment that marketing research indicated that the average handgun owner might not fire 500 rounds through their handgun during the entire time they owned it, meaning over the course of many years.
I have a copy of a report from a fed agency discussing testing of some service-type pistols back in the late 80's. In it is a statement that the average number of rounds estimated to be fired for training in the M9 at that time was 80 rounds per year. Also, a couple of the pistols with alloy frames being produced to meet military specifications for service life back then experienced cracked frames at 10,000 rounds (or less), but that wasn't considered unacceptable for military needs.
Now, as a firearms instructor and armorer I've had my fair share of opportunity to probably shoot more rounds than the typical non-competitive owner/shooter. I fired an estimated 45+K rounds through a single aluminum alloy framed compact I carried as an issued weapon for only a few years. I've fired many thousands of rounds through a number of other issued pistols, too.
I try to spread out the use among my personally-owned pistols. It helps reduce the wear & tear on my various guns, as well as helping keep me current with the different models I typically carry and shoot. I keep approx round counts for preventive maintenance purpose and I presently have 3 small guns which have seen in excess of 10K rounds fired through them. I've replaced some parts in them as recommended by the makers for reason of expected wear & tear of what's considered replaceable wear parts, and other parts whenever I've seen them exhibit indications that a parts replacement was in order. I don't consider any of those guns to be significantly worn out or anywhere near the end of their service lives.
I have some other pistols and revolvers which have seen even more usage over the years, too.
As long as a pistol is being properly maintained, meaning being kept clean, free of debris & contaminants and kept properly lubricated, I don't look at a gun being fired 1-2K rounds as being a "lot of rounds".
Now, if the gun had been abused and not properly maintained, and some accelerated wear, damage or even parts breakage might have resulted ... then even a relatively low round count might become a problem. Just depends.
Then, there are some pistols on the market which seemingly aren't intended to be fired as much as others.
It's still just a machine, you know.
ny32182
Member
Properly cared for pistol (as in, not stored underwater, etc) with 1300rds is still almost LNIB as far as I'm concerned. To me that is just enough to sort out whether there are really any issues with it and be broken in.
5-10k is where I might start to expect a real price break vs the average LNIB or a "broken in" (~1300rd) example. Why? No particular reason other than that is somewhere ballpark where some preventative maintenance in terms of springs and whatnot might be in order, the finish is likely to be a little more worn, the major parts may be a little more beat up if there was a steady diet of +P run, etc. But I would still purchase one with this round count or more if a good history can be given and it is in good shape, etc, and the price is right.
Probably one or both of the following going on:
1) Shopper knows better and is just saying anything to get the price down, or, more likely:
2) To the *average* gun owner, 1300 rounds is a lot. Apart from my shooter buddies, other people I know who own guns will likely NEVER put that amount through in their lifetime. Just off the top of my head, in the last 7 years or so I have helped three different non-shooter friends buy their first and only pistol. I would say with a high degree of confidence that all three of those pistols combined have well under 1300 rounds through them. They are purchased, taken to the range to shoot a hundred rounds, and then reside in a shoebox in the closet for eternity. That is just what the "average" gun owner does, and they assume everyone does the same.
5-10k is where I might start to expect a real price break vs the average LNIB or a "broken in" (~1300rd) example. Why? No particular reason other than that is somewhere ballpark where some preventative maintenance in terms of springs and whatnot might be in order, the finish is likely to be a little more worn, the major parts may be a little more beat up if there was a steady diet of +P run, etc. But I would still purchase one with this round count or more if a good history can be given and it is in good shape, etc, and the price is right.
Probably one or both of the following going on:
1) Shopper knows better and is just saying anything to get the price down, or, more likely:
2) To the *average* gun owner, 1300 rounds is a lot. Apart from my shooter buddies, other people I know who own guns will likely NEVER put that amount through in their lifetime. Just off the top of my head, in the last 7 years or so I have helped three different non-shooter friends buy their first and only pistol. I would say with a high degree of confidence that all three of those pistols combined have well under 1300 rounds through them. They are purchased, taken to the range to shoot a hundred rounds, and then reside in a shoebox in the closet for eternity. That is just what the "average" gun owner does, and they assume everyone does the same.
In general, for me, it depends on what we're actually talking about. In your case, I hardly think that is a lot. I would akin it to a new car with 1500 miles on it.
If you were talking a large magnum rifle, or even a magnum handgun, I would think that were a lot.
If it were an AR or AK or something to that effect, I would think it's just getting worn in.
It's what they are meant to do, I don't understand why people wish to put as few rounds as possible. What's wrong with a new barrel? Hell, that is exciting!
If you were talking a large magnum rifle, or even a magnum handgun, I would think that were a lot.
If it were an AR or AK or something to that effect, I would think it's just getting worn in.
It's what they are meant to do, I don't understand why people wish to put as few rounds as possible. What's wrong with a new barrel? Hell, that is exciting!
General Geoff
Member
For a full size service pistol, it's nothing.
For a micro-sized pocket pistol, it's quite a few, since they tend to go through recoil springs fairly quickly, and beat themselves up from lack of mass to absorb recoil.
1320 rounds is nothing for, say, a 5" 1911.
1320 rounds in a Ruger LCP, however, could be considered a lot.
For a micro-sized pocket pistol, it's quite a few, since they tend to go through recoil springs fairly quickly, and beat themselves up from lack of mass to absorb recoil.
1320 rounds is nothing for, say, a 5" 1911.
1320 rounds in a Ruger LCP, however, could be considered a lot.
This thread is finally getting to the point- the number of rounds fired is pretty relative. To some people, a couple of boxes a year are a lot....although, I expect, to none of the members of this forum.
When buying used guns, there might be things far, far more important than a few thousand rounds (which is inconsequential in any quality pistol, all that's been done is a good break-in).
What any buyer of used guns should be watchful for is in the "fiddling" category. The shooting group to which I belong has two members who are notorious for getting together to "improve" their pistols. Neither has any training or much information, but they have worked on such critical parts as trigger components and sears. The more they meddle, the more FTFs and other problems they have. Just listening to their conversations is enough to make one cringe. If I were offered a gun by either of those guys, and at any price, I would politely decline....but I suspect that some poor soul will end up with some of those guns, one day.
When buying used guns, there might be things far, far more important than a few thousand rounds (which is inconsequential in any quality pistol, all that's been done is a good break-in).
What any buyer of used guns should be watchful for is in the "fiddling" category. The shooting group to which I belong has two members who are notorious for getting together to "improve" their pistols. Neither has any training or much information, but they have worked on such critical parts as trigger components and sears. The more they meddle, the more FTFs and other problems they have. Just listening to their conversations is enough to make one cringe. If I were offered a gun by either of those guys, and at any price, I would politely decline....but I suspect that some poor soul will end up with some of those guns, one day.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
So someone can't be a serious shooter if they happen to be say, a college student without a sack of retirement cash to blow on ammo or reloading parts?
I'd like to consider myself a more serious shooter than a lot of people. I'm in the military, I take pistol and carbine courses, I go to the range as often as I can afford it. I shoot a lot of .22 because it's cheap practice. But 1,000 rounds for anything other than .22 is the high end for me. I just don't have loads of disposable income to blow on recreational shooting like a lot of the older retired guys on these forums. I guess that means I'm not a serious shooter.
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fastbolt
Member
I wouldn't be so quick to judge whether someone is a serious shooter simply based upon the number of rounds sent downrange.
I've seen folks burn a lot of rounds downrange without correcting problems, make much effort at developing their skillset or even realizing that they needed improvement.
I'd rather see someone take the time and focus on shooting a just a box of ammunition, all the while learning good skillsets and then emphasizing continuing to develop and use the proper skills, than see someone blow off 500 rounds a month and only get "better" at doing things wrong.
I've seen folks burn a lot of rounds downrange without correcting problems, make much effort at developing their skillset or even realizing that they needed improvement.
I'd rather see someone take the time and focus on shooting a just a box of ammunition, all the while learning good skillsets and then emphasizing continuing to develop and use the proper skills, than see someone blow off 500 rounds a month and only get "better" at doing things wrong.
chieftain
Member
The question was, what do we consider a lot of rounds?
50,000+ rounds, is a lot of rounds.
25,000+ is a lot of rounds but not to some folks. (think High speed, low drag types, and world class competition shooters.)
I am down to only shooting 8-10 thousand rounds a year now because of my health. I don't consider that a lot of rounds.
As to "Serious Shooters". I believe only a fool will try to figure out what another man is thinking, or believe he can. I judge and measure all folks by their actions, in context, remembering that no one is perfect. It IS important to judge people on their actions, in fact to survive as individual's and society, we must.
My application of the "seriousness" of the shooter is in how many different training and shooting venue's does the shooter participate in, of course subject to his resources, time and such.
Also not to be ignored is real life risk factors in the shooters day to day life i.e. A Marine rifleman in Afghanistan or Police SWAT team member in Albuquerque vs an Engineer working for Boeing in Seattle or a student in school at Ann Arbor. Yes it matters.
To some it's just the Beer to round count ratio.
Go figure.
Fred
50,000+ rounds, is a lot of rounds.
25,000+ is a lot of rounds but not to some folks. (think High speed, low drag types, and world class competition shooters.)
I am down to only shooting 8-10 thousand rounds a year now because of my health. I don't consider that a lot of rounds.
As to "Serious Shooters". I believe only a fool will try to figure out what another man is thinking, or believe he can. I judge and measure all folks by their actions, in context, remembering that no one is perfect. It IS important to judge people on their actions, in fact to survive as individual's and society, we must.
My application of the "seriousness" of the shooter is in how many different training and shooting venue's does the shooter participate in, of course subject to his resources, time and such.
Also not to be ignored is real life risk factors in the shooters day to day life i.e. A Marine rifleman in Afghanistan or Police SWAT team member in Albuquerque vs an Engineer working for Boeing in Seattle or a student in school at Ann Arbor. Yes it matters.
To some it's just the Beer to round count ratio.
Go figure.
Fred
I have my late Dad's 38 in the safe. When I aquired it, the gun was with a 1/2 empty box of ammo that he bought with the gun. Some people aren't shooters so they don't understand high ammo counts.
I just put 250ish rounds through a 1911 and a SR9 just a couple days ago and that was a mild day at the range.
I just put 250ish rounds through a 1911 and a SR9 just a couple days ago and that was a mild day at the range.
My dad has a Colt Commander that he bought about 15 years ago. He has never shot it, 500 rounds is prob. alot to him. I have to take it apart from time to time just to make sure it dosen't rust.
For me I wouldn't worry when buying a gun with 1,200 rounds threw it.
For me I wouldn't worry when buying a gun with 1,200 rounds threw it.
Stasher1
Member
My thoughts exactly. I would much rather buy an all-stock handgun with 2500+ rounds through it than a nearly new Glock with all of the latest whiz-bang titanium goodies installed by your typical ham-fisted kitchen table "gunsmith".
straitnate14
Member
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I have shot right around 2500 through my XD 45, I know so because I have 2000 empty boxes worth of Missouri Bullet Company 230rn laying around and I know I out about 500 worth of store bought ammo before I learned how to reload, The trigger is much crisper than it was when I bought it and it still shoots better than I do.
Russ Jackson
member
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- Dec 17, 2009
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- 564
There should be no meaningful wear at 20,000 rounds. That gun is just over some manufactures breakin number. Isn't Kimber at 500 or 1000 rounds recommended? Better question is how accurate is it?...Russ
TuckerNielson
Member
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- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 42
It has been often said that there are 'Shooters' and then there are 'Gun Owners'. I definitely belong to the latter group, but I'm working hard to become a shooter. I own an XDm 9mm (purchased new) with ~9000 rounds through it. I rarely go to the range and shoot less than 300 rounds. I also own a S&W 625 of Jerry Miculek fame and it has about 3000 rounds through it. Both guns are virtually brand new (they are my range queens) and have zero failures. I will consider replacing the spring on my XDm after 10,000 rounds, but it probably won't be necessary as I've had no problems thus far. I would have no problems purchasing a gun treated well with over 10,000 rounds. I purchased a Glock with over 20,000 rounds through it and use it as my daily carry; I have no problem trusting my life to that gun.
my two cents
my two cents
I would consider the gun broke in with a 1000 rounds having been fired. I'm saying a good brand name gun, not some of the junk that I see today. I don't believe some of the guns that are being sold today will shot 1000 rounds. In three months I probably shot 1600 rounds thru my Gamo pellet rifle.
Sheepdog1968
Member
The reality is that many many firearms out there don't get 1000 rounds through them. To me, this means you can get basically an unfired pistol for steep discount. I've got some Sigs that have 10,000 and 6,000 rounds through them. Both are in great shape. I don't think the 1300 or so rounds through yours is much and it wouldn't stop me from buying it if you were asking fair market value for it and I wanted it. My expectation is that most pistols should be capable of at least 100,000 rounds through them with routine prevenative maintenace performed. It wouldn't surprise me if you could get two or three times that round count through them. I should be so luck to be able to afford the ammo to shoot that many rounds and find the time to do it. Also, if it wore out, I would happily go out and buy another one and put the worn out one on "display".
I get this email today about a gun i am selling (Didn't happen here).
Quote:
hi my name is XXXX and i have been looking at all kinds of springfields. it seems like alot of rounds have been down the barrel but i know how reliable they are. if you are willing to come down on the price, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
The Pistol in question is a Springfield XD-45. It has 1,320 exactly down the pipe (I keep notes and store on an excel spreadsheet).
So, what is a lot to you? IMO 500 is the bare minimum i would even start to trust the pistol with my life on. 1,000 rds is where i feel most triggers show their true colors.
With modern pistols going tens of thousands of rounds before real wear and tare, who is telling these people 1k is a lot?
The guy is an idiot. Either that or he's talking **** to try to get you to come down in price, nothing more. And "whats alot of rounds"
25,000 I guess would be a good round # with a modern day handgun like any Glock, H&K, XD, whatever else floats your boat. 1,320 or a quarter mile for those cars guys is NOTHING, just gettin warmed up
Quote:
hi my name is XXXX and i have been looking at all kinds of springfields. it seems like alot of rounds have been down the barrel but i know how reliable they are. if you are willing to come down on the price, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
The Pistol in question is a Springfield XD-45. It has 1,320 exactly down the pipe (I keep notes and store on an excel spreadsheet).
So, what is a lot to you? IMO 500 is the bare minimum i would even start to trust the pistol with my life on. 1,000 rds is where i feel most triggers show their true colors.
With modern pistols going tens of thousands of rounds before real wear and tare, who is telling these people 1k is a lot?
The guy is an idiot. Either that or he's talking **** to try to get you to come down in price, nothing more. And "whats alot of rounds"
25,000 I guess would be a good round # with a modern day handgun like any Glock, H&K, XD, whatever else floats your boat. 1,320 or a quarter mile for those cars guys is NOTHING, just gettin warmed up
varoadking
Member
Many? I think not...
wally
Member
Not out of a single gun -- I don't have enough mags
, but its pretty easy for me to bring six pistols and run 200 rounds through each at the plate rack. I'll often run 280-350 rounds (four or five boxes) of cheap corrosive surplus through my 7.62x25 Tokarov. Since I've got to clean it afterwards, it gets as many rounds as practical per session (I only have enough mags to load 152 rounds).
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