What do you expect to do with a sword

[Dirty Bob]

I carry a sword daily: next to the driver's seat in my car. It's a Condor "Combat Machete," which looks like a smallish gladius. It fits nicely in a little "pocket" on the floor, to the left of the driver's seat. I can open the door and get in, but it sits low enough that no one has ever noticed it.

I don't worry about it like I would a firearm, while the car is parked in a parking lot for many hours per day.

If someone were to try smashing a window and invading my vehicle, I don't think a small gladius is a big step down from a firearm. I know how to use it and fought with a short sword in the SCA. A wide, double-edged blade is also sort of intimidating. Maybe it would bring about an attack of common sense in someone who just broke a car window, at least long enough for me to drive away.

Perhaps the biggest advantage of a sword/machete over a firearm is that it isn't a danger to someone in the next car, across the street, etc. The other is the low cost for an effective machete.

For something big, inexpensive, indestructible and well made, find a Japanese-made hori hori knife. I have the one in the link, and it's a beast! The knife is made for gardening—including digging—and it's slightly concave on one side of the blade, like a trowel. I've often thought that an infantryman might be better off with a sharp hori hori in a good sheath—and a multitool—than with most other combat knives, given how often a soldier needs to dig.

It takes some work to sharpen up, but it's a solid knife of good steel. The sheath is garbage—meant for resting on a shelf, not for carry. This is one of those knives where you can see that all the money and effort went into the blade. Love it!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[C0untZer0]

If someone were to try smashing a window and invading my vehicle, I don't think a small gladius is a big step down from a firearm.

In Chicago, they tap on your window with their gun and tell you to get out of the car. If you drew a sword and waited for them, they'd just open fire from outside the vehicle. Not to rain on your parade, but in most carjacking scenarios a sword is indeed a big step down from a firearm.

 

[westernrover]

The HEMA community has some sources for practical knowledge and skills in the use of melee weapons.
For practical use, you can pretty much rule out concealed carry which means you're not likely to have it in most scenarios outside your private property. An automobile is also not a practical environment for these kinds of weapons. For home defense, on the other hand, they are both practical and useful though they should be seen as only adjuncts to firearms.

While nearly every historically significant weapon had some raison d'etre, our contemporary circumstances have made most of them obsolete. A pole hammer, for example, is not useless, but it's function to destroy an opponent clad in steel armor is obsolete since nobody wears that kind of armor anymore. A consequence of this is that the weapons that were most recently adopted may be most likely to fit our contemporary circumstances best.

Given that a cavalry sabre is of a length suited to engaging an enemy on the ground from horseback, we're less likely to find it suited to 'home defense' than a naval cutlass that was designed for close-quarters combat within the confines below decks.

As a general principle, pole arms are better for tasks like controlling doorways. Their additional reach gives them a decided advantage when engaging an opponent who has only a knife, machete, hatchet or even a sword. If you think about defense against home invasion, it's not much different than repelling boarders. The boarding pike, cutlass, and revolver were all used effectively as late as the 20th century. The pike and cutlass would certainly be more effective against an armored opponent (level 2 ballistic vest) than most handguns. That is not to say their use necessarily constitutes a superior strategy. The distance a handgun could potentially afford is a decided advantage. That distance isn't guaranteed though.

 

[Dirty Bob]

In Chicago, they tap on your window with their gun and tell you to get out of the car. If you drew a sword and waited for them, they'd just open fire from outside the vehicle. Not to rain on your parade, but in most carjacking scenarios a sword is indeed a big step down from a firearm.

No argument from me! My main reason for the Condor short sword is that I'm not giving someone a gun if they burglarize my parked car. Back before handgun carry became legal in Texas (public) colleges and universities, I kept a sharp Cold Steel Special Forces shovel in my trunk, and used it one night to dissuade a very sleazy street person who tried to creep up on me while I was putting my backpack in the trunk. In the past, I've had more than one encounter with street people (plural) intent on strongarm robbery or robbery with a weapon they never drew.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Given that a cavalry sabre is of a length suited to engaging an enemy on the ground from horseback, we're less likely to find it suited to 'home defense' than a naval cutlass that was designed for close-quarters combat within the confines below decks.

Mmmm...the naval cutlass varied in length from around 27 inches to 36 inches throughout history, with most being 28 to 32 inches. The cavalry sabre varied in length from around 30 to 40 inches, with most being 33 to 36 inches.

Lengths varied by culture and use. For example, a heavy cavalry sabre would tend to be a few inches longer on average than a light cavalry sabre.

While the cutlass is shorter, this isn't because they were intended to be used below decks. While a shorter blade would, in fact, be better below decks, the tight spaces encountered in such confined spaces made using blades of any significant length a difficult prospect, perhaps more so for the cutlass than it would have been for a cavalry sabre in fact.

This is because the cutlass blade is heavier. As it was once put to me quite a few years ago while I was still in the Navy and doing a bit of research on the cutlass, the cutlass was a "hack and slash enlisted man's weapon". Having room to swing such a blade was therefore important.

That said, two major factors contributed to the shorter average blade length of a cutlass compared to a sabre: Topside was not necessarily as wide open an area as depicted in many movies, filled with many obstacles and interferences, such as masts, rigging, capstans, etc. Climbing rigging was required, as well. Thus a shorter average blade length made them easier to use. The other is that these weapons were a "repel boarders" type of weapon. Not only were they to be used against invading forces, they also had to be capable of hacking through enemy grappling ropes and rigging. Thus a heavier blade.

By way of contrast, a naval officer's sword was not intended to be a "hack and slash" weapon. It was a much lighter, differently designed sword intended for pretty much for sword fighting between opponents.

What would be most suitable in a home can vary for many of the reasons swords themselves varied in design. But it would also be a truism to say that the most suitable would be what one was trained on. Lots of factors involved in this, including the simple fact of whether or not one had a sword in the first place!

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

After my Navy enlistment I joined the Coast Guard Reserve and served with a,(somewhat eccentric..) GMG-1.
During the early 80's when boat crews were required to be armed he argued that they should issue cutlasses to us for when we boarded.
Never was sure if he was serious or not...

 

[Bcwitt]

In Chicago, they tap on your window with their gun and tell you to get out of the car. If you drew a sword and waited for them, they'd just open fire from outside the vehicle. Not to rain on your parade, but in most carjacking scenarios a sword is indeed a big step down from a firearm.

& in Chicago, you cannot carry legally, right?

 

[JShirley]

For something big, inexpensive, indestructible and well made, find a Japanese-made hori hori knife. I have the one in the link, and it's a beast! The knife is made for gardening—including digging—and it's slightly concave on one side of the blade, like a trowel. I've often thought that an infantryman might be better off with a sharp hori hori in a good sheath—and a multitool—than with most other combat knives, given how often a soldier needs to dig.

It takes some work to sharpen up, but it's a solid knife of good steel. The sheath is garbage—meant for resting on a shelf, not for carry. This is one of those knives where you can see that all the money and effort went into the blade. Love it!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Bob, the Hori Hori you link is probably pretty similar to the kunai some ninja used. In modern fiction, kunai are throwing darts or daggers, but historically, they were more of a digging tool.

John

 

[Dirty Bob]

Bob, the Hori Hori you link is probably pretty similar to the kunai some ninja used. In modern fiction, kunai are throwing darts or daggers, but historically, they were more of a digging tool.

John

John, you might well be right! The hori hori is widely known in gardening circles, but not to knife nuts. If I ever open carry a large knife, the hori hori (with a homemade handle and sheath) would be on the short list. It was recommended in a book on organizing a prepper team for defense. I didn't understand until I held one in my hand. It works as either a good digging/gardening tool, or one of the best daggers I've ever used.

I have Stone's book on weapons. I'll have to see if there's an entry for kunai.

Muchisimas gracias!
Bob

 

[theotherwaldo]

Most Oriental self defense weapons were originally designed as something that could be carried as just another tool.
Mustn't allow the peasantry to be armed... .

 

[JShirley]

That wide blade also means blades like this can be used defensively in less-lethal ways. Sure, pommel strikes are an option with most blades, but your reach is limited. Having a wide, flat blade gives more reach and leverage.

John

 

[Twocanary]

Learned something today. Stopped using the hori-hori for gardening. Cleaned it up and applied some cold blue to it to darken it a bit. Wide blade is very reflective. Also cold blued a china katana that had a rust problem. Appreciate shared knowledge on this forum! Pics

 

[rust collector]

The hori-hori isn't the only tool that can be pressed into service. Behold, the insulation and duct knife: https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=duct+knife&ref=nb_sb_noss_1 My Klein is part of my standard tool bucket loadout.

 

[JShirley]

Most duct knives look like an invitation to cut yourself on a stab. At least that Klein handle has a little protection.

 

[C0untZer0]

& in Chicago, you cannot carry legally, right?

In 2013 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled that Illinois total ban on carrying outside the home was unconstitutional in Moore v Madigan. Concealed Carry is legal in all of Illinois - Chicago no exception.

The number of stabbings in Chicago far outnumber the shootings but they seldom make the news, and the Cook County State's Attorney's Office recently declined to press charges in a case where a fight between two teens ended in one teen stabbing the other to death. The Cook County State's Attorney's Office originally declined to press charges saying the situation was "Mutual Combat." After it gained nationwide attention and such severe criticism, they changed their stance and said they were declining to indict due to lack of evidence.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/illinois-family-outraged-no-murder-160408092.html

Chicago is turning into a very lawless place. People are already engaging in knife fights pretty regularly, its not beyond the realm of possibility that they'll be sword fighting in the streets soon, except there are a lot of cases where the knife fights end in a shooting. Either one of the combatants has a gun or a friend of one of the combatant's has a gun and the knife fights often end in a shooting. Here is a reversal where what started out as a shooting ended in a stabbing (both parties died)

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...-outside-nw-side-business-police-say/2614328/

 

[entropy]

https://handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf

 

[Bcwitt]

In 2013 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled that Illinois total ban on carrying outside the home was unconstitutional in Moore v Madigan. Concealed Carry is legal in all of Illinois - Chicago no exception.

The number of stabbings in Chicago far outnumber the shootings but they seldom make the news, and the Cook County State's Attorney's Office recently declined to press charges in a case where a fight between two teens ended in one teen stabbing the other to death. The Cook County State's Attorney's Office originally declined to press charges saying the situation was "Mutual Combat." After it gained nationwide attention and such severe criticism, they changed their stance and said they were declining to indict due to lack of evidence.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/illinois-family-outraged-no-murder-160408092.html

Chicago is turning into a very lawless place. People are already engaging in knife fights pretty regularly, its not beyond the realm of possibility that they'll be sword fighting in the streets soon, except there are a lot of cases where the knife fights end in a shooting. Either one of the combatants has a gun or a friend of one of the combatant's has a gun and the knife fights often end in a shooting. Here is a reversal where what started out as a shooting ended in a stabbing (both parties died)

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...-outside-nw-side-business-police-say/2614328/

In 2013 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled that Illinois total ban on carrying outside the home was unconstitutional in Moore v Madigan. Concealed Carry is legal in all of Illinois - Chicago no exception.

The number of stabbings in Chicago far outnumber the shootings but they seldom make the news, and the Cook County State's Attorney's Office recently declined to press charges in a case where a fight between two teens ended in one teen stabbing the other to death. The Cook County State's Attorney's Office originally declined to press charges saying the situation was "Mutual Combat." After it gained nationwide attention and such severe criticism, they changed their stance and said they were declining to indict due to lack of evidence.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/illinois-family-outraged-no-murder-160408092.html

Chicago is turning into a very lawless place. People are already engaging in knife fights pretty regularly, its not beyond the realm of possibility that they'll be sword fighting in the streets soon, except there are a lot of cases where the knife fights end in a shooting. Either one of the combatants has a gun or a friend of one of the combatant's has a gun and the knife fights often end in a shooting. Here is a reversal where what started out as a shooting ended in a stabbing (both parties died)

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...-outside-nw-side-business-police-say/2614328/

I did not know that, thank you for the correction. My post was ment to refer to places that prohibit handguns. I beg your pardon.

 

[C0untZer0]

There are also quite a few carjackings in Chicago that are done using a knife, but the attackers usually get right up on a person before producing the stabbing or cutting instrument. In this case it was very bad situational awareness - the victim sat in her car for some time with the window down:

2 suburban men charged with carjacking woman at knifepoint while her kids were in the vehicle

That Condor Tool & Knife Combat Machete, a dirk, cinquedea or a hand-and-a half dagger, a Lombard Seax Knife or an Arkansas Toothpick would probably be a superior weapon to what those carjackers used. And not everyone in Illinois gets issued a concealed carry license. If a person ever admits to ever having had depression at any time in their life - it is extremely difficult to get the concealed carry license in Illinois. For people who are denied the CCL, carrying a short sword in your car or some other type of non-firearm weapon is not a bad idea. Although... the CCL law allows CCL holders to carry a gun, it doesn't cover blades or other non-firearm weapons. Illinois is a patchwork of various municipal laws concerning knives and Chicago has made blades longer than 2.5 inches illegal and double-edged knives are illegal in Chicago.

It is weird... they have this law on the books prohibiting blades longer then 2.5", but they decline to charge a teen who stabs someone to death, calling it "Mutual Combat", - it is becoming a very crazy place.

 

[Dirty Bob]

That wide blade also means blades like this can be used defensively in less-lethal ways. Sure, pommel strikes are an option with most blades, but your reach is limited. Having a wide, flat blade gives more reach and leverage.
John

Good call! Most Philippine martial artists have learned the backhand with a stick that’s done by rotating the wrist. We called it a witik, and I loved its speed. The stick snapped out and back in a heartbeat. The same move could be used to “flat” an attacker with a blade, perhaps on the hand or wrist.I like it!

Bob

 

[Dirty Bob]

Learned something today. Stopped using the hori-hori for gardening. Cleaned it up and applied some cold blue to it to darken it a bit. Wide blade is very reflective. Also cold blued a china katana that had a rust problem. Appreciate shared knowledge on this forum! Pics

Personally, I think I’d be kinda’ casual about the cleaning. When I carried a small, sharp shovel in my trunk, it was one I’d used a lot in the garden. It had dirt ground into the end of the handle, right at the blade, and it bore the nick and scratches of use. I kept a shovel there in case I got stuck somewhere on a dirt road, right?

A used hori hori and a partial roll of TP in a plastic bag, along with a bar of soap, are not hard to explain for someone who travels the highways of Texas. I already carry water, granola bars, tea bags, a small cook kit and backpacking stove, along with a first aid kit and blanket.

 

[tachelberry]

I use mine for Display. Two original Civil War swords. Top one is a M1860 Mansfield and Lamb. The bottom is a M1840 Wrist Breaker Tiffany Co.

 

[Twocanary]

Personally, I think I’d be kinda’ casual about the cleaning. When I carried a small, sharp shovel in my trunk, it was one I’d used a lot in the garden. It had dirt ground into the end of the handle, right at the blade, and it bore the nick and scratches of use. I kept a shovel there in case I got stuck somewhere on a dirt road, right?

A used hori hori and a partial roll of TP in a plastic bag, along with a bar of soap, are not hard to explain for someone who travels the highways of Texas. I already carry water, granola bars, tea bags, a small cook kit and backpacking stove, along with a first aid kit and blanket.

The hori-hori got promoted and so cleaned. I have a small hatchet in the cab of my Tacoma. Haven't looked at for years; I should look. Texas people are very considerate, digging holes. Once while bird hunting I sat down, shared water and jerky with the dog and only then noticed TP next to me. Frick

 

[hso]

The hori hori is widely known in gardening circles, but not to knife nuts.

Ahem, it is to true knife nuts. I happen to have 3 here.

 

[hso]

places that prohibit handguns

Best to review IL knife laws, including those of Chicago. https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/illinois/

 

[Dirty Bob]

Ahem, it is to true knife nuts. I happen to have 3 here.

I should have written "most" knife nuts. I stand corrected!

Thanks!
Bob