What do you Load in your 45 acp for personal defense?

[LiveLife]

I used to use Hydra Shok for HD/SD but have switched over to Golden Saber / Ranger SXT.

I load similar weight bullets (jacketed/plated) to duplicate the recoil/shot placement of the factory JHP round and practice with them. Although I prefer to load my magazines with factory ammunition for SD/HD, bulk factory JHP like Golden Saber bullets are available if you choose to reload your own SD/HD rounds. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601267681

Having said that, I would certainly feel quite confident with my 45 pistol loaded with 230 gr RN whether jacketed/plated or even lead.

 

[Ian Sean]

5 of Bullseye and 230 gr. XTP's for me, this has proven to be a good load through my .45, I load on a single stage for my carry ammo and take my time, checking and rechecking everything.

 

[grubbylabs]

Well I was given some 185 grn HP's the other day and they shot really well with unique on the higher end of the charge data 8.2 is max and I loaded 7.5-7.8- and 8.1
So this morning I went and picked up some speer Gold Dot HP' in 185. I have loaded 5 at each increment. The free ones that I don't know the name of for sure but they might be Berry's shot the best at 8.2 so I suspect the gold dots will do well around there but I am loading the others just to make sure.

 

[sniper55]

6.1 grs. of w231 or hp-38 same powder behind 200 gr. Horn XTP. Per Hornady 5.9 start Max 6.8 works for me.

 

[sniper55]

Sorry about my first reply do not use this load my bad. Was suppose to be START 5.9 MAX 6.8 of Unique instead of 231 Sorry again was at work and got interrupted.

 

[altitude_19]

Don't use 'em. There's the short answer.
The long answer: Discharge residue can be used to determine the distance from your assailant at the time of the shooting. If you load the cartridge so that it leaves more or less residue, it can be construed that your knife wielding attacker was too far away from you to be an immediate threat when you fired on him. The details vary of course, but the bottom line is this: How far you were from the person you shot is VERY darn important. You'll hear people say "NOT ONE SUCH DOCUMENTED CASE IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND!" They are incorrect (but they probably don't care to hear the facts because they believe they produce the greatest ammo the world has ever known). Here's one case. And there are others such as NH v. Kennedy. Bottom line, investigators need to know the composition of your load to determine whether or not a shooting was righteous, and they cannot take your word from your hand-written "bullet diary" as to what was really behind the lead you sent downrange. Thinking they will believe your load log is tantamount to assuming a crook would get off because the cops found a note that said "wasn't me" in his pocket.

 

[buck460XVR]

Here's one case.

Sorry altitude_19....I have seen this same article posted in many of these "Do you use handloads for SD/HD?'' threads. It has nuttin' to do with a SD/HD shoot being justified or not. It has to do with a case of whether a handgun death was a suicide or a murder. Something that will always be an issue when a wife is killed, her husbands fingerprints are on the gun and the husband's story does not match forensic evidence. The reason the defendant was charged with reckless manslaughter had to do with other reasons, not just because he had reloads in the gun. The guy killed his wife. Even if his story, which is what what is really challenged and at question here, not the choice of ammo, was true, he still was negligent and was still guilty of reckless manslaughter. I think he murdered his wife and got off easy.

 

[SOUTHPAW]

 

[BP Hunter]

230gr Hornady XTP with 5.8gr of Unique. My Taurus PT 1911 and Sig Sauer P220 seem to agree with it. Shoots straight and accuracte.

 

[zxcvbob]

I see more of the running in circles, the sky is falling cries about using handloads in SD. NONE of it can be proven though. Either it's a good shoot or it's not.

I use handloads in all my carry calibers.

I mostly agree with this. Just remember that to an outsider, it might not be obvious whether it was a good shoot or not. I use handloads in my HD guns. I haven't made up my mind yet about carry guns. I do think the risk is way overblown, but it's not zero.

 

[LiveLife]

We had several long-term discussions on this very issue at the ranges/matches and we finally decided loading factory JHP for SD/HD was a cheap insurance to eliminate this legal liability IF/WHEN it became an issue (I live in God forsaken anti-gun state of California ).

Ultimately, if there was a JUSTIFIED shooting of SD/HD situation, you will be tried by your peer of 12. I just don't trust the peer of 12 I will have to content with in my state/county/city.

Your situation in your state/county/city may vary. Yes, I have retirement plans AWAY from California.

 

[amd6547]

I have a 45acp Ballester Molina which functions perfectly with any JHP I have tried...but I use whatever FMJ 230gn ball load I find.

 

[cheygriz]

For defense?????

I "load" FACTORY Remington 185 grain +P Golden sabres.

 

[altitude_19]

It has nuttin' to do with a SD/HD shoot being justified or not

You missed the part about the details varying (and there being other cases). The rhetoric remains the same. Investigators need to determine how far you were from your target and that can only be done with replicable load data that CANNOT be reliably obtained from handloads (notice how there was a different load in every chamber of the death weapon in the case I posted). If you play the "those precise circumstances could never happen to me" game, it's doubtful you will ever learn from anyone's mistakes except your own (believe me, that's a hard road to travel).
But, since you asked here is ANOTHER CASE: Officer stops suspect, officer is involved in physical altercation, suspect is shot. Suspect subsequently claims he was 30 feet away from the officer. He did not have a firearm and says he was shot for no reason without proper escalation of force. Gunshot residue establishes suspect was 18 inches from the officer's weapon at time of discharge and indeed posed an immediate threat. This would not have been established if the officer did not have a weapon charged with FACTORY ammo with verifiable type and amount of propellant. Officer is acquitted. Sound a little more like what could happen to you? You can find all the details of this case by searching for Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems. And yes, there are STILL MORE cases for you to review if you still intend to cast doubt on just how much a liability this can be.

 

[steve4102]

Gunshot residue establishes suspect was 18 inches from the officer's weapon at time of discharge and indeed posed an immediate threat. This would not have been established if the officer did not have a weapon charged with FACTORY ammo with verifiable type and amount of propellant.

Are you saying handloads do NOT produce "gunshot" gunpowder residue? Are you saying that if I am involved in a shooting and my weapon and ammo are confiscated they cannot test my ammo because it is a handload?

 

[Walkalong]

What was the original question? Haven't we beat this dead horse enough in other threads?

 

[buck460XVR]

You missed the part about the details varying (and there being other cases). The rhetoric remains the same. Investigators need to determine how far you were from your target and that can only be done with replicable load data that CANNOT be reliably obtained from handloads (notice how there was a different load in every chamber of the death weapon in the case I posted).

no....I didn't miss that part. I've read the article more than once. Every time I read it, the defendant's story gets harder and harder to believe. As I said before, this ten year old article has been posted many a time in many different gun forums in an attempt to prove the existence of evidence that one should not use handloads for SD.....and just as many times, it has been shown, it has nothing at all to do with a SD shoot being justified or not. Actually if there would have been factory ammo in the gun, the defendant probably would have gone to the gas chamber or life in prison. Only by the clouding of the issue by the defense and whether or not the handloads had enough power to leave GSR at close range, made the difference between a murder or a manslaughter verdict. Had they been factory loads in the gun with no GSR, the defendant woulda fried. The evidence you give from the other case verifies this. Handguns leave GSR at close range. By your argument in the first case, we should all use handloads for SD, because the DA would never be able to prove at what range we shot our attacker, thus the jury would have to take our word for it instead of using forensic evidence.

If you play the "those precise circumstances could never happen to me" game, it's doubtful you will ever learn from anyone's mistakes except your own (believe me, that's a hard road to travel)

Thanks for the concern. But you are making the assumption that I'm making a mistake. You have yet to provide any kind of evidence to me that I am. That tells me it is you making the mistake. Not a hard road at all. If you wish to only use factory loads in your SD weapon, go for it. Till there is solid evidence that my handloads by themselves, will turn a good shoot into a bad shoot, I will continue to use them without fear. I guarantee you, my handloads will leave GSR at close range.........

 

[altitude_19]

Ok, the fellow whose wife shot herself in front of him was a "good shoot" that turned into a bad one (went to trial). And your saying it isn't and trying to cast doubt on the acquittal is evidence that stories get harder to verify when handloads are used.
The base logic is that handloads may skew the results of an investigation (you claim it happened here). You say the result in this case was that a guilty man was acquitted and that handloads swung the verdict in his favor. If that's true, what makes you think they couldn't swing the results towards an erroneous conviction (YOURS)? Even if you aren't erroneously convicted, it can make your defense considerably more challenging, and that's something most care to avoid.

But since that one isn't good enough. NH V Kennedy was a case regarding a righteous shoot that was taken to trial with much ado made over home-made ammunition with the insinuation that the shooter was so hell-bent on causing maximum damage that he manufactured his own deadly brand of ammunition. He was acquitted, but I don't want to know what his legal fees were from the extra lawyer hours and expert testimony that went towards defeating the "Convict Rambo" style prosecution. Is the $10 per box savings on handloaded vs defensive ammo worth your life-long financial ruin following a trial defense?

In the case of Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems (which you haven't mentioned reading) GSR may not have led to the case going to trial, but RELIABLE REPLICABLE GSR data as a result of factory loads resulted in the acquittal. Had he used handloads that resulted in less GSR, he would have appeared further away (giving merit his assailant's accusations). This case serves as proof that GSR results from factory ammo can acquit you. Your handload might or might not convict you (it WILL NEVER get you exonerated after being taken to trial), but why wouldn't you carry factory ammo that can get you off the hook?

So this whole "no documented cases of handloads causing trouble" argument is smoke. Remember, the best fight is the one you avoid. Here's the summary:

Handloads CAN cause you trouble. It has happened before. They have never acquitted anyone through forensic evidence. If they have, the results of the case will forever be in question as a result of un-vetted evidence (you're claims of a wrongful acquittal are proof).

Factory loads CAN provide more verifiable evidence that will result in your acquittal (if not preventing a trail in the first place). They HAVE acquitted wrongfully accused defendants who fired in self-defense.

BUT, I should have asked the question in the first place: What (aside from a few bucks in your pocket) makes handloads worth all this uncertainty?

 

[zxcvbob]

Are you saying that if I am involved in a shooting and my weapon and ammo are confiscated they cannot test my ammo because it is a handload?

They could test it, but they won't. The prosecution will claim that you "manufactured the evidence", and the judge will eat that up because it sounds so clever.

I'm not worried about that at home, and I use handloads. The one or two times I've carried, I had factory ammo in the magazine (different gun) and handloads in the spare mag.

 

[Polar Express]

In my opinion, I always grab a factory loaded product for that is marketed for SD.

My logic is this: I make sure the box has 'self-defense' or something similar on it somewhere.

I have no idea whatsoever if it would help me, but in my mind, if I ever end up having to use that ammo in that capacity, and I find myself in court over the issue, I would like to be able to produce the box that clearly lists the product as a self-defense product. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I figure every little bit helps.

That being said/written, I'd pick the nastiest, most expanding with ultra sharp nasties that come out product I could find - that came in a box labled as 'self-defense'.

I personally, don't make that decision based on a reliablilty issue at all. I just don't want some idiot trying to say that I 'brewed up some extra hot loads just to make sure the bad guy was good and dead'.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm trying to cover my backside in case I do need to use it.

PE

 

[BsChoy]

Speer 230gr Gold Dot standard pressure in my M&P

 

[Ky Larry]

I carry Winchester White Box 230gr JHP's in my Kimber.Wally World was clearing them out a few years ago and I bought a case of this ammo. I've found 8.2gr of AA#5 under a Hornady XTP to shoot to the same point of impact. I will probably carry this load when my stash of Win ammo runs out.

 

[LiveLife]

Just a thought.

I think the old 230 gr FMJ "ball ammo" sure did a great job of "defending" US military personnel over several wars and they probably felt sufficient with that round.

Since the introduction of various hollow point ammunitions, my guess is that terminal ballistics of these JHP rounds gotta be better than the 230 gr FMJ.

I do not know if the OP was asking (for polling purposes) what the most popular 45 ACP rounds were or trying to determine which round may have the best terminal ballistics.

 

[buck460XVR]

Ok, the fellow whose wife shot herself in front of him was a "good shoot" that turned into a bad one (went to trial)

yep....and if you read your own link, you'll see that after 4 trials it was still determined that it was not a suicide........that he pulled the trigger. This was supported by more evidence than just the lack of GSR. Only thing mulled was whether or not it was murder or an accident. Has absolutely nuttin' to do with a private citizen using reloaded ammo for SD and it making a difference. The NH V Kennedy case is a forty year old case of a police officer that claims a drunk in a ditch grabbed his gun and shot himself in the face with it. Again (altho it was brought up in court that he used reloaded ammo)his use of reloaded ammo had nuttin' to do with his exoneration. If I remember correctly, there were conflicts in the defendants story and a prior history of excessive force that led to the original charge of aggravated assault. The other case you mention is a case of a cop shooting a BG with factory ammo.....and you ASSUME there MAY have been a problem if he had used reloaded ammo. Neither of the latter two cases has anything to do with a private citizen using handloaded ammo for SD and it taking a good shoot and making it bad, no matter how you twist it. The cases you refer to have been brought to our attention here on THR before by Mas Ayoob. Nuttin' new. I have read them, thought about them and made a decision based on the fact again, that none of these cases has anything to do with private citizens using handloaded ammo for SD.


The reason I use handloaded ammo is not only because of cost, but because I have confidence in the way it performs in my guns. I know the odds of me ever having to use them in SD are less than me winning the lottery. The odds of me being wrongly convicted because of using reloaded ammo in a SD situation according to the facts YOU have presented are less than that.......exactly zero.

 

[JohnMcD348]

I like both Hydrashok and Gold Saber. I lean more toward the HS but seem to be using the GS more as I sometimes have trouble finding the HS in the caliber I want. I've been a HS fan for years ever since I bought my first .357(S&W686 4") about 20 years ago. It was recommended to me by some LEO friends at the time as it worked remarkably well for them in their 9mm they were forced to carry at the time.