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What do you say to your lib associates about Assualt Weapons?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by jondwright, Feb 17, 2005.

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  1. jondwright

    jondwright Member

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    I'm new to shooting, but I can already tell I'm a lifer. I went to the range for the 1st time 2 months ago. Within a month I had a 10/22 rifle, my CCW, and a revolver that both my wife and I can shoot comfortably. Ok enough about me...what about libs?

    I'm talking to one yesterday, joking about Illinois, where he is from. He says, I want tougher gun control. Why do people need assault rifles? I didn't have much to say other than..."it starts there. If we let them take away constitutional rights, they won't stop with AW's." And, "Legal gun owners commit crimes at a much lower rate than the general population."

    I know where you guys are on the subject, I enjoy the "good thing is wasn't an AW" sarcasm...but give me some one-liners (facts and such) to come back at him with.

    TIA
     
  2. ZeroX

    ZeroX Member

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    Assault weapons is just a buzzword for a normal semi-auto rifle that looks black and mean. An AR-15 is no more dangerous than a wood stock Mini 14 (accuracy and reliability aside), it just looks "evil".
     
  3. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    I usually just ask them exactly what an "assault weapon" is ?

    They usually either don't know, or say "machine guns" :rolleyes:

    Then I try to explain about NFA-34 and that "assault weapon" is just a legal fiction that has no meaning in reality.

    At that point they usually just wet their pants and start hyperventilating about "well, I don't know what it is but the govt knows what is bad and they should ban it and ..." :barf:

    You can't argue with a hoplophobe :rolleyes:


    I went through all this with a Canadian acquaintance, and anytime guns are mentioned he justs starts slobbering about "machine guns" - as if somehow fully automatic fire can kill you deader than a hunting rifle or shotgun :banghead:
     
  4. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Get on a site like GunsAmerica.com or AuctionArms.com or Gunbroker.com

    Search for rifles chambered in .223.

    Print off pictures of all sorts of rifles chambered in .223....bolt actions, break-top actions (Handi Rifle) semi-autos.

    Show your lib co-worker pictures and tell him that every single one of those rifles shoots the exact same cartridge and the exact same caliber.

    Especially with the semi-autos.....they shoot the exact same catridge, exact same caliber.........

    The so-called "assault weapons" function exactly like all the other semi-autos.....they just have cosmetic accessories that make them "look mean."

    Of course, depending on how "lib" your co-worker is, showing all those gun pics might make him faint, wet his pants, or refuse to talk to you ever again.

    No big loss, if the third outcome is the result.

    hillbilly
     
  5. jondwright

    jondwright Member

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    Great stuff so far guys. Thanks. I'm learning much myself. Tallpine, what is a hoplophobe? And by the way, I usually have no problem arguing with this lib, and owning him!
     
  6. WT

    WT Member

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    Nothing. We have different points of view on the subject. They will not change nor will I. Therefore, we don't discuss it.
     
  7. ZeroX

    ZeroX Member

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    hoplophobe - n. - person with an irrational and morbid fear of guns
     
  8. jondwright

    jondwright Member

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    I have a lot of influence over this kid. It's a really good opportunity. All he does is regurgitate Michael Moore rhetoric. It's easy to whip him. What is considered an assault weapon?
     
  9. jondwright

    jondwright Member

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    I guess more importantly, I'm guessing any one of us can buy a machine gun. Is there a good answer to: "Why do you need one?". Or is it just...because I CAN. (=
     
  10. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    This turned into a novel, but I hope some of it helps:

    -"Assault Rifle" and "Assault Weapon" are two different things.

    -An "Assault Rifle" is a mid-range caliber rifle that is capable of fully automatic fire. You pull the trigger and it keeps on shooting. German Sturmgewher 44, AK-47, M-16, etc.

    -An "Assault Weapon" is a made-up term. Assault weapons were defined by legislators flipping through a gun catalog and picking out weapons that "looked" dangerous. As defined, an "Assault Weapon" might LOOK similar to an "Assault Rifle", but can only shoot once for every time you pull the trigger.

    -The "Assault Weapons" ban did NOTHING to further regulate the sale and ownership of Assault Rifles. Anyone can own one if they pay a transfer fee and pass a stringent background check - established in the 1930s.

    -The term "assault Weapon" plays upon the confusion between a semi-automatic weapon like a Saiga and a fully-automatic weapon like an AK-47. The news media has even been known to show a fully-automatic Assault Rifle blasting away on full auto when doing stories about Assault Weapons.

    -Can't use Assault Weapons for hunting? The second amendment is not about hunting, it is about truly creating a government of/by/for the People and denying tyrants the ability to run the United States.

    -The original definition of "Assault Weapon", in my opinion, was a "camel's nose in the tent" strategy. Is the 30-06 Remington 7400 I use to hunt deer an "Assault Weapon"? It's actually significantly more powerful than an AK-47. Is a 30-30 lever-action Winchester an "Assault Weapon"? It can punch through standard police and military body armour. Is a shotgun an "Assault Weapon"? Loaded with slugs, a $100 single-shot shotgun can punch through and destroy a Master Lock - the ones that still work when shot with a high-powered rifle. Once we accept that certain guns can be outlawed, it's not a big jump to the next gun until we are only allowed to own licensed $2000+ shotguns that we need to store and shoot down at the gun club because John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi "believe in the 2nd Amendment".

    -''If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it.'' – Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's 60 Minutes, February 5, 1995.

    -All legislation for renewing the "Assault Weapons" ban included expanding the definition of "Assault Weapons" to include more rifles.

    -Is a baseball bat an "Assault Weapon"? Many baseball bats, pool cues, nightsticks, big flashlights and rolling pins have been used as a weapon to assault someone. Is it "assault" when someone uses one of thee weapons to defend themselves? Or does "assault" depend on the motivations of the assault-er? "Assault" is a crime. Weapons do not commit crimes. Is it "assault" if you use an effective weapon to defend yourself and your family from assault or attack? Possession of a weapon does not force a person to commit a crime. Your car is a much more potent weapon than ANY pistol, shotgun, rifle or machine gun. It's "Assault" if you choose to drive your car into a crowd, but you're still not driving an "Assault Vehicle".

    -In my opinion, movies like "Die Hard" created the assumption that so-called "assault weapons" and even "assault rifles" were being used in crimes. In reality, only 1-2% (depending on which study you believe) of crimes before AND AFTER the AWB involved "Assault Weapons".

    -Why own one? Well - as an American, your first answer to that should be "it's a free country" followed with a quick "mind your own **** business", but no one seems to learn the basics of being a free citizen while growning up anymore. If you really need to explain it, military rifles are easy to operate, fun to shoot, built strong enough to shoot many rounds in one sitting - like at a competition or while under attack from multiple attackers, designed for all sizes/strengths of people to operate, designed to operate in deserts/jungles/everywhere in between, low recoil, ammo is readily and cheaply available, many are affordable for people who don't have Secret Service protection or can't afford bodyguards, while not optimal for deer - most CAN be used for hunting, full-capacity magazines allow for recurring shots without leaving yourself defenseless, standardization allows for replacement and after-market parts and accessories to keep your rifle operating and match it to your specific needs.

    A better question is "Why NOT own one? Don't you care about your life and protecting your family?"

    "You don't?...well, I do."

    More info:

    http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/aw94.htm
    http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhatWastheAWB.htm
    http://www.awbansunset.com/
     
  11. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    You can usually ask a liberal what he means by an Assault Rifle.

    They don't know an Assault Rifle from a trash can lid.

    Then I tell them "Assault Rifle" type guns have been controlled since the early 1930s because an Assault Rifle is a machine gun, M16, AK47, etc.

    Then if the person seems to be worth your time you can explain to them that 99.9% of what they learned about guns from other liberals and the news media is wrong.

    Usually it's just a waste of time talking to a liberal but someone that's just misinformed about guns might be worth educating.
     
  12. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Nothing. I don't discuss "assault weapons" with liberal associates or religion with conservative associates. I don't discuss abortion with either. Nothing to be gained.
     
  13. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Show them what the "assault weapons ban" actually covered:

    all firearms holding over 10 rounds, with a few inconsequential exceptions;

    all civilian self-loading firearms having certain features, like a rifle with the stock shaped a certain way;

    and banned the use of 19 scary names in the marketing of civilian firearms.

    It did NOT ban military AK-47's, military Uzi's, "weapons of war," or whatever; automatic weapons are already restricted by the National Firearms Act of 1934 (which has been on the books for 70 years now...)

    The "assault weapon" issue is a classic bait-and-switch. The guns most affected by the ban were full-size handguns like the one in your local police officer's holster (Glock 17, S&W 5906, Beretta 92, Ruger P-89). Show him how he's been manipulated.
     
  14. RavenVT100

    RavenVT100 Member

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    They eventually cave and admit that they want to go to the range.
     
  15. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    I say,

    "I like my assault weapon.

    "It does not have a sporting purpose, and I'm not going to give it one. I also do not care how many crimes are committed with assault weapons. Such statistics have no bearing on my right to own and shoot it.

    "My assault weapon is a tool for defending myself against those who seek to confiscate my rights. If there ever comes a day when we're living under tyranny, you can bet your a$$ I'll be using it. And if thugs ever show up at my door to confiscate my rifle & ammo, rest assured I'll be giving them the bullets first."
     
  16. cxm

    cxm Member

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    What To Say?

    I tell them it isn't a "Girly Man" thing... they wouldn't understand... then leave it at that....

    FWIW

    Chuck

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    I'm new to shooting, but I can already tell I'm a lifer. I went to the range for the 1st time 2 months ago. Within a month I had a 10/22 rifle, my CCW, and a revolver that both my wife and I can shoot comfortably. Ok enough about me...what about libs?

    I'm talking to one yesterday, joking about Illinois, where he is from. He says, I want tougher gun control. Why do people need assault rifles? I didn't have much to say other than..."it starts there. If we let them take away constitutional rights, they won't stop with AW's." And, "Legal gun owners commit crimes at a much lower rate than the general population."

    I know where you guys are on the subject, I enjoy the "good thing is wasn't an AW" sarcasm...but give me some one-liners (facts and such) to come back at him with.

    TIA
     
  17. RavenVT100

    RavenVT100 Member

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    I live in New Jersey, so we're not allowed to own assault weapons.

    That said, I do enjoy my Bushmaster XM15 target rifle.
     
  18. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    I tell them, in short, to mind their own business. I don't spend my days trying to tell them how to live their lives, or what kinds of products they're allowed to spend their money on. I expect the same courtesy from them.

    "Freedom means not imposing your will upon your neighbors. I respect your freedom, and I expect you to respect mine."

    They usually get the message.
     
  19. meanoldman

    meanoldman Member

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    I always try to get them to go to the range and shoot my AR. I start with a .22 semi auto and then move to the .223. Then I ask them why one is labled an AW and the other is not. So far I have converted about 70%.

    David
     
  20. Kurt S.

    Kurt S. Member

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    I hope this jpeg attachment comes through. Just in case it doesn't, it's a collapsible stock/forend with an "AR-15 type muzzle mount" on an H&R single shot 12 gauge. The first thing that happened when I saw this in the Sportsmens Guide catalog was I started giggling like a 12 year old girl. (I don't mean anything personal by this if accessorizing firearms is what lift's anybody's, uh, spirits- you should have seen what I did to a Ruger 10/22 one time. I also apologize if you are a 12 year old girl.) The second thing was how this would likely cause a hoplophobe's bladder to cut loose.

    Point is that if you showed the picture to somebody who isn't familiar with guns but knows that "assault weapons are evil and should be banned", it would probably closely correlate with the image in their mind of what said "assault weapon" looks like.
     

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  21. kfranz

    kfranz Member

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    Don't bother discussing what an "assualt weapon" is. Instead, take the opportunity to discuss with him what "need" is. Hone in on the "need" for whatever he fancies, and cut him to the bone with it. If he isn't a complete idiot he will come around. The cognitive dissonance he experiences as he shifts to thinking rather than repeating may cause it to take some time.
     
  22. Jay Kominek

    Jay Kominek Member

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    As has been mentioned, I ask them to define "assault weapon". I then explain in excruciating detail the myriad ways in which they are wrong. I then ask how they feel about handguns. I ask them reconcile their fear of handguns and their concealability with their fear of the rifles which were deemed assault weapons, in light of the fact that they're Really Big. This confuses them.

    I usually toss in some stuff about "need" and the whole point of rights. But that goes completely over their heads.

    I don't really get anywhere with it, so either my technique is flawed, or I'm generally dealing with a particularly irrational breed of statist. (I suspect the latter, really. I need to move.)
     
  23. jondwright

    jondwright Member

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    To set the record straight, he wasn't criticising anyone. We were just having a conversation. As a matter of fact, he has NO IDEA I CCW. That's the way it is supposed to be right?

    So, I didn't feel he was trying to infringe on my rights, but that he had been mislead. I just didn't have the proper information to steer him straight again. Some of you have helped with that.

    The most compelling information that I have read is information that supports the fact that legal owners of legal guns commit far less crimes than the overall population. And of course, times when a legal gun owner has successfully defended his family or someone close to him.
     
  24. mbs357

    mbs357 Member

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    I love how my Remington 522 Viper .22 rifle is an assault weapon!
     
  25. Havegunjoe

    Havegunjoe Member

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    Ask for their definition of an assault weapon.

    It is usually a machine gun. I ring the buzzer on them and expalin the error of their ways. Also try www.awbansunset.com, it has some great material on the subject.
     
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