What do you think of DPMS quality in general?

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With all due respect, the steel in barrels aside because I really haven't heard of failure in these regardless of steel composition. What I have heard is that CL is maybe not as accurate as some of the other options but is better suited in wet, salt, corrosive environments.
My concern is more to the small parts like springs, pins, and BCG's. For instance is the nitride finished bolt from DPMS superior to a milspec one from someone else?
Are after market triggers by Geissele or JP etc. mil spec?
It seems most recievers are 7075 T6.
Bolts are 8620 S or 416 SS
Barrels are 4140, 4150 S or 410, 416 SS
DPMS claims milspec on their parts kits
Heck I don't think PMags are milspec yet, maybe the whole MagPul line.
I name DPMS because that is the topic of the OP but I suspect many brands fall under the same poor reports but I still suspect that many parts sources are shared across the board with packaging being the primary difference as well as the name on the label.
I wonder who makes the small parts for LaRue?
 
I am seriously worried that Chicom parts will start to or already have entered the parts stream. I know we have many of their guns here already but if ever there was a possibility of going of spec and tolerance it will be from Chinese parts.
 
MilSpec (How I hate that term) is misused a lot. What you mean by Milspec is actually referring to the TDP. The Technical Data Package is a set of guidelines that a gun MUST follow to be allowed into service. It is essentially a set of ranges or Minimums that must be met and the testing requirements that a gun must go through.

There are very few manufacturers who actually meet these specs and only a couple who exceed them. DPMS claims mil spec because their parts will interchange with a Military gun. However that is not what makes a gun, or the parts, suitable for use.

You say your concern is more with the small parts, and you would not be incorrect in saying that. However a DPMS parts kit is not the same as a Colt or DD, or LMT kit. They do not meet the minimum requirements. The most obvious problem with them is the oversize roll pins but looking though a normal LPK will show a number of other issues including mis-made parts and bad QC letting things like a cracked sear through.

I will address some of your direct examples as well.
For instance is the nitride finished bolt from DPMS superior to a milspec one from someone else?

Possibly, but the bolt will be inferior. Finish means nothing if the bolt breaks.

Heck I don't think PMags are milspec yet, maybe the whole MagPul line.

Nope but they do have a cage code, and more importantly they exceed the durability and reliability requirements of the STANAG mags. Once again it isn't about matching the look of something. It is about meeting or exceeding the requirements set forth in the TDP or RFP.

Bolts are 8620 S or 416 SS
Yeah but how many companies Shoot peen them?
 
My concern is more to the small parts like springs, pins, and BCG's. For instance is the nitride finished bolt from DPMS superior to a milspec one from someone else?

The nitride treatment is potentially good but the bolt itself probably is not the best steel (milspec is Carpenter 158, most commercial bolts are 8620) and very likely is not shot peened, a process that really matters but is invisible and often skipped.

Are after market triggers by Geissele or JP etc. mil spec?

No, with the exception of certain Geissele triggers (which would not meet the standard spec, but have been accepted by the military for DMR use). Many aftermarket triggers are known for breaking or premature wear when compared to properly made milspec triggers.

It seems most recievers are 7075 T6.

Yes, one area where most companies are using the milspec material. A few are cast, or 6061, or plastic, but the vast majority are this alloy.

Bolts are 8620 S or 416 SS

Milspec alloy is Carpenter 158, which is stronger in this use than 8620. A few low volume companies use 9310, which is potentially as good or better, but not the milspec. Most cheaper commercial bolts are 8620 and weaker than milspec. I'm not aware of any 416 SS bolts and would not want to be nearby when one was in use.

Barrels are 4140, 4150 S or 410, 416 SS

Mostly, with the caution that people claiming "4150" don't always mean the same thing - it could be just 4150, which is barely better than 4140, or it could be an alloy that meets the basic requirements of 4150 but also has other features, such as a % of vanadium, to meet on of the military-accepted alloys. All explained at the M4c chart on google.

DPMS claims milspec on their parts kits

"milspec" is used loosely and often commercially it just means the general shape and appearance of the military part. Very rarely does it mean that the part would meet every last criterion for military acceptance. Colt, LMT, and BCM make parts that do meet all criteria; I think DD and a few others do also.
 
You guys are depressing me. I bought my first AR15 a few months ago from a private seller, and it's a DPMS in perfect condition, only had 92 rounds fired through it. Now I'm not going to ride it hard, use it in competition or combat, but I do plan to shoot it a lot for plinking when I can. I thought it was damn nice, except for the crappy stock trigger, and am very proud of it, but y'all are making it sound like junk. Bummin' me out.

Of course, people spit on my RIA 1911's too, and I know firsthand that they're fine pistols for my needs.

DSCN3457.jpg
 
You guys are depressing me. I bought my first AR15 a few months ago from a private seller, and it's a DPMS in perfect condition, only had 92 rounds fired through it. Now I'm not going to ride it hard, use it in competition or combat, but I do plan to shoot it a lot for plinking when I can. I thought it was damn nice, except for the crappy stock trigger, and am very proud of it, but y'all are making it sound like junk. Bummin' me out.

Of course, people spit on my RIA 1911's too, and I know firsthand that they're fine pistols for my needs.

If it suits your needs then shoot it and be happy with it. What you have to understand is that this argument comes up when people start asking about what gun to use for HD, training, or SHTF. Or when they ask about which gun is "best". The answer to those is different than the answer to what is good for plinking or dirt shooting.

I don't have toys, or pinkers, or anything like that. It is just a different mindset. Any time I have picked up a weapon that wasn't meant for serious use I end up selling or trading it off. So my needs are obviously different from yours. There is nothing wrong with either. We just have different needs.

Shoot the gun, enjoy it. If something breaks call DPMS, they have killer Customer service. If you decide to start doing training then consider something else, but till then don't worry about it.


ETA. I would get rid of that riser on the top. Looks like about 8oz of unneeded weight. If you add an optic just get a mount already at the right height. Other than that it is a fine looking fun.
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Heat. Heat increases throat erosion, kills spring temper and increases forces on parts in extraction (because higher heat means brass takes longer to obturate).


Throat erosion has nothing to do with reliability. As for springs, an AR has a buffer spring, an extractor spring and a magazine spring but high temperature creep of steel occurs at approx. 40 to 50% of the melting temperature. Also, consider the extreme test comparing a POF P415 to an M4 in the link below.

http://www.pof-usa.net/articles/P416Torture.pdf

The test showed that the chamber and bolt face of the M4 barely got above 115˚F during a rapid fire session even when the gas tube melted after 264 rounds. This isn't hot enough to have any appreciable effect on spring k value. As for extraction of the brass, I'd like to see some data on fired case temperature as a function of rate of fire and then see that data correlated to extraction force required. The POF didn't have any extraction issues during the 1,036 rounds fired at a rate of fire that no one in their right mind would try to emulate. The bolt face was just over 100˚F so how would this stress the extractor spring? The chamber was at a similar temperature so extraction wouldn't be an issue either. The anti gas piston crowd have stated many times that the BCG of an M4 isn't appreciably hotter than the BCG of a gas piston AR during similar firing cycles. So if the M4 doesn't run appreciably hotter, we can assume that the chamber and bolt face would be at a similar temperature, a temperature that would have little to no effect on the longevity or reliability of the parts in question.



taliv said:
also, you shoot 3000 rnds in 3 days and the assumption is you're not cleaning more often than once/1000 rnds, probably not at all.

shoot 3000 rnds in 3 yrs and the assumption is you are shooting 100 rnds per day and cleaning between range trips.

But we read time and time again on this forum (and others) how the dgi AR runs 100% reliably when heavily fouled. The anti gas piston crowd is always touting how an AR doesn't need cleaning to run reliably. So which is it?



Azizza said:
Think of it like a car engine. Run it slow and steady and even a crappy car will last a couple hundred thousand miles. Run it fast and hard and you start to see which engine is really made to take it.

Yes, the automotive analogy which simply doesn't apply here. Engine rotation speed or rpm is what matters to engine life (along with proper lubrication). The cycling speed of an AR BCG is virtually a constant regardless of temperature. Also consider that the rate of acceleration and deceleration have a significant effect on the longevity of an automobile, both the engine, drivetrain and suspension. Again, the acceleration/declaration of the BCG and other associated parts are for all intents and purposes constants for the AR.

So I don't buy into the notion that taking a class and firing 1,000 rounds in a day is significantly different to firing 1,000 rounds in a month. If it works, it works!! As for instructors and their opinion ... the firearms industry is rotten with special interests and biased opinions. I've never met an objective instructor and I've met a bunch during classes or on military ranges.
 
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1858, I am not seeing much point to your post except to try to stir the pot but I will try to address it as best I can.

While the rate the bolt travels at is fairly fixed, the number of times it moves in a set period of time does effect the heat buildup quite a lot. A single round doesn't do much. a long series of rounds in short order does indeed heat a gun up a lot.

You have to worry about more than just the bolt face. You have to worry about the entire gun. Barrel heat, chamber, bolt, bolt carrier. All of these things factor in because the gun will expand and contract as it heats and cools. The more it heats the more it expands. Along with the stress of firing this can lead to stress fractures in parts of the gun, especially the bolt.

Also I would like to see why you feel that throat erosion has no effect on reliability. Any time you are changing the dimensions on the gun there is the chance of causing problems.
 
Azizza said:
1858, I am not seeing much point to your post except to try to stir the pot but I will try to address it as best I can.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm simply trying to give others a different perspective on what they actually NEED versus what others tell them they NEED.



Azizza said:
You have to worry about more than just the bolt face. You have to worry about the entire gun. Barrel heat, chamber, bolt, bolt carrier. All of these things factor in because the gun will expand and contract as it heats and cools. The more it heats the more it expands. Along with the stress of firing this can lead to stress fractures in parts of the gun, especially the bolt.

Read the POF article in the link above to see real-world temperatures under extreme firing conditions.



Azizza said:
Also I would like to see why you feel that throat erosion has no effect on reliability. Any time you are changing the dimensions on the gun there is the chance of causing problems.

Throat erosion has a deleterious affect on accuracy which is independent of reliability. In terms of combat accuracy, do you think that 1/2 MOA, 1 MOA or 2 MOA is important at typical engagement distances? Is it important for a civilian defending their home? Is it important for a three-gun match which some here seem to think is the ultimate test of any AR?
 
I tghink most guns will work for most people most of the time. I think that you really do have to run a rifle HARD to show the difference between an $800 rifle and a $2000 rifle. But yes, there is still a difference.

And I very much agree with Azziza. "Mil-Spec" means your rifle matches bulk parts made by the lowest bidder. If there was a time that parts used by the military were over and above, it certainly doesn't apply now to AR rifles.

I also agree that there is a limit to how much rapid fire a rifle can handle without failing. Most people will never buy enough ammo to get there. :)
 
Throat erosion has nothing to do with reliability.

No; but gas port erosion will effect reliability and is cause by pretty much the same things that cause throat erosion. I mentioned throat erosion just because it was the first and most obvious example of the difference between 3,000 rounds in say three days vs. one year.

The test showed that the chamber and bolt face of the M4 barely got above 115˚F during a rapid fire session even when the gas tube melted after 264 rounds. This isn't hot enough to have any appreciable effect on spring k value.

I guess it depends on what the spring is made out of; but there isn't much question that some springs fail at a very low round count. Perhaps it is just bad building that kills them rather than heat.

As for extraction of the brass, I'd like to see some data on fired case temperature as a function of rate of fire and then see that data correlated to extraction force required. The POF didn't have any extraction issues during the 1,036 rounds fired at a rate of fire that no one in their right mind would try to emulate. The bolt face was just over 100˚F so how would this stress the extractor spring?

The difference between lock time in a rifle and a carbine length gas system is 175 microseconds. 175 millionths of a second; yet that difference is enough to cause the introduction of the enhanced extractor spring in the M4 carbine. The enhanced extractor spring is necessary because with the shorter time, the brass has not had as much time to shrink away from the chamber before extraction begins and the extractor spring that worked fine in the rifle was not always doing the job in the heavier use encountered by SOCOM.

As the chamber heats up, brass takes longer to obturate. At some point, the case will overcome the ability of the bolt to extract it and the extractor will either slip off the rim or bend/bite the rim. That may not stress the extractor or extractor spring all that much; but it will cause a stoppage that you'd have never seen if you only shot the rifle 3,000 rounds a year.

Which is really the major point I was trying to make, a lot of people never see problems with their rifles because they don't shoot their rifles to anywhere near the point where they would fail.

So I don't buy into the notion that taking a class and firing 1,000 rounds in a day is significantly different to firing 1,000 rounds in a month. If it works, it works!!

Let's say you've got your Sendra-PWA rifle and it is great. It has never failed you in 3,000 rounds and is deadly accurate. Of course that fastest you have ever fired it is 10 shots in 60 seconds. You take it to a training course and discover that after 100 rounds in a few minutes, it has stoppages. Is it because the gas port was drilled out to accomodate low-powered commercial .223 ammo and now it is overgassed? Is it because the chamber is much tighter than the "5.56 NATO" stamped on the barrel in order to help produce that stellar accuracy? Is it because the buffer spring was never right to begin with and so the rifle is cycling much faster than it is supposed to? Some combination of these or any of a dozen other possible issues? The heat didn't "degrade" the rifle - it just revealed where compromises in the original design had been made in order to offer some other advantage (enhanced accuracy, reduced cost, etc.) If you never fired the rifle 1,000 rounds in a day, you'd probably go on thinking that your rifle was flawless.

All I can tell you is in three of the four formal carbine training courses I've taken, there was at least one rifle that did fine as we sighted in and started out hunky-dory; but then as the day progressed and the rifle got hot, it stopped working. Every one of those guys had never had a problem with the rifle prior to the course; but there we were trying to fix it in the middle of the course. So I've got to disagree with your "If it works, it works" theory.

Machines are built to operate reliably in a certain range of conditions, if you exceed that range, they don't work so well. The great thing about rifles that are built to the TDP is not that they are the best rifles or have the widest range of operating conditions, it is that thanks to Uncle Sam and 50 years of research, we have a pretty good outline of what those conditions are.
 
Something to think about.

You can buy two DPMS rifles for the price of one really really really nice Daniel defense rifle.

Personally i'd be less afraid to run the 800$ rifle hard and break it than I would a rifle that cost me 1/4 years pay. I have less invested in it.

Also, If I buy an 800$ rifle I can buy optics and two cases of ammo before I can buy a base platform of some the rifles you guys are recommending.

Lets be practical.

The guys that are buying rifles that cost 2 grand (I'd love to have your job) with few exceptions are probably not running them that hard either which is why they break less.

The farm guy with the $800 DPMS is probably using that rifle for everything.

Just my thoughts.
 
Arsenal, people are trying to be practical, stating emphatically to all who will listen to buy as much gun as you need for the task it is intended for.

The $200 difference between a Colt and a DPMS is NOT an insurmountable amount to a shooter looking to run many thousands of rounds per year through it. If that is not the intent, then a DPMS and a case of Wolf may be the better short term deal. Once potential down time, parts replacement and resale value are figured in the less expensive choice may become the cheaper gun that wasn't.

I don't ask my rifles to perform the role Azizza's do. I butted heads with him in numerous posts because I failed to understand that fit, finish and accuracy are not the entire checklist for a quality AR. (Sorry Azizza, my apology is long overdue).

Thanks to all for their information. At some point I'm sure my collection will include a second black rifle, likely from a higher tier.
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
The difference between lock time in a rifle and a carbine length gas system is 175 microseconds. 175 millionths of a second; yet that difference is enough to cause the introduction of the enhanced extractor spring in the M4 carbine.

It wasn't just the difference in lock time. Don't forget about almost twice the chamber pressure in the carbine length gas system. There are two important issues here, not just one. The force of the cartridge case against the chamber walls is much more a function of chamber pressure than heat. I will say it again, chamber and bolt face temperatures are not that extreme, even with a high rate of fire. See the POF article.


Bartholomew Roberts said:
Every one of those guys had never had a problem with the rifle prior to the course; but there we were trying to fix it in the middle of the course. So I've got to disagree with your "If it works, it works" theory.

If your AR starts to have problems within 100 rounds of the start of a class, then your AR wasn't working properly to begin with. Very few shooters take the time or the make the effort to keep any sort of accurate logs on their firearms. I have logs on EVERY firearm (and magazines) I own both for reloading, for "upgrades", performance during a match, during classes, at the range, issues, failures etc. I do this so that I don't fool myself into thinking that my gear works when in fact either it doesn't or I'm simply guessing. I know of quite few people who've taken classes, shot in matches or even gone on hunting trips with equipment that is NIB. This is not my idea of "it works"!
 
i believe one of the most common problems with heat is that it increases the chamber pressure and results in popping primers, which get into all sorts of odd places like the gas key or under the trigger.

another problem with heat is that aluminum gas blocks common on DPMS and others expand at a different rate and allow the ports to become misaligned.


But we read time and time again on this forum (and others) how the dgi AR runs 100% reliably when heavily fouled. The anti gas piston crowd is always touting how an AR doesn't need cleaning to run reliably. So which is it?

assuming it is properly built and properly lubed, yeah. but it's not really safe to make either of those assumptions for vast majority of AR15s.

another assumption in that statement is that the "dirt" is actually carbon residue, dust, and sand. however, in classes and matches, you tend to get a lot of unusual foreign objects into the gun that wouldn't show up shooting from a bench. for instance, i shot a match once where mud migrated from my hands to the magazines and from there into the receiver. it built up over 6 stages to the point that in the 7th stage, the action spring didn't have enough oomph to put the bolt into battery.

While I don't clean carbon fouling out of my ARs more than 2/yr, and just pour more lube in, had I been shooting casually, I would have taken the time to clean mud out of my receiver.
 
1858, my experience is nearly identical to bart's: i've spent way too much time standing in a class waiting for some guy to fix his gun so we can continue. and you always hear the same thing, "it never malfunctioned before!"

so either, there is a difference and we can all speculate on why, or there isn't a difference, in which case we can speculate on the correlation of people with broken guns being habitual liars
 
taliv, I liked your previous post ... good information.


taliv said:
so either, there is a difference and we can all speculate on why, or there isn't a difference, in which case we can speculate on the correlation of people with broken guns being habitual liars

And there you have it ... luckily you're a moderator so can get away with such a statement. I will say it again, IF your AR mysteriously fails at the start of a class, chances are it wasn't working right to begin with, regardless of how you try to spin it with "it's never happened before" or "I don't know how this could happen". In these situations, the offending individual should be marched out to the 100 yard line and used as a no-shoot target on some challenging drills! Let's see if they'd make the same mistake (or excuses).
 
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my apologies if you found that offensive. (being a mod doesn't excuse me in any way from non-THR statements) i thought it was clear, i don't think they're liars, as I believe there's a difference in shooting fast and slow, and in field positions vs a bench.

edit: btw, it's by no means just the guns. that statement applies to all the crap people put on their guns, and expensive guns too, and bolt guns and machine guns and just about everything. i mean, heck, i don't want to veer off topic into camping/hiking gear, but a lot of hiking gear looks like a good idea putzing around with it in the backyard, but you really learn what works and what doesn't when you change altitudes, temperature, etc and when it starts raining, snowing or gets to 100+ degrees.

i've got dang near $8k in a bolt gun that worked flawlessly in a couple F-class matches this year, but I discovered several things that weren't working for me when i went to a class, and the practice this past weekend for the mammoth sniper challenge. it doesn't mean the gun is crap; you expect that sort of thing when someone custom-makes the action and the serial number is double-digits. However some AR15 mfgs have made millions of AR15s and they have known how to fix certain problems for decades and refuse to do so because it's expensive. That's ok, as we all make value decisions every day. Just don't try to convince me one is just as good as the other.
 
only had a dpms upper once, the front sight was so canted i had to adjust the rear sight ALLLLL the way to the right in order to make it shoot at POA at 50 yards. It was impossible to drive out the front sight pin to correct the problem too so i got rid of it for a massive lost.

Thanks DPMS
 
taliv said:
my apologies if you found that offensive. i thought it was clear, i don't think they're liars, as I believe there's a difference in shooting fast and slow, and in field positions vs a bench.

I didn't find it offensive at all since I agree with it. The shooting world is full of inveterate liars with egos to match. My experience has been that the folks that put in the effort do well. Their gear works regardless of the name stamped on it. I know plenty of people with quality gear that seem to struggle and people with run-of-the-mill gear who don't. The difference is due diligence and attention to detail. I know of a pair of individuals that think that money is the answer to everything. They're sure that they're getting beaten every match because they haven't spent enough.
 
"I don't have toys, or pinkers, or anything like that. It is just a different mindset. Any time I have picked up a weapon that wasn't meant for serious use ..."---Aziza

This illustrates the crux of the matter, doesn't it?

So what is "serious use"?
If you're in the Army, you shoot what they give you.
If you're in the Police, you shoot what the department buys---with some exceptions.
Private security?

If you aren't in any of these, how serious is your use?
This is a sincere question, not some snarky trap, by the way.

"It is just a different mindset."

No lie, brother.
-----krinko
 
Love my DPMS

Just got a DPMS 338federal light hunter 18" barrell. i shot a .567 3 shot group at 8500' 50 or so degrees. I was very impressed. Been shooting at 400 yards lately with it seems not bad.
 
Why is a military armorer in Iraq working on DPMS rifles? Also, the M4 and M16 use the same extractor. It is the extractor spring and insert that are different. Don't know who your source is; but those strike me as odd parts of his story.



Heat. Heat increases throat erosion, kills spring temper and increases forces on parts in extraction (because higher heat means brass takes longer to obturate).
The gentlemans bio and qualifications......

11B10/USCG GM2, Barrett, Beretta, Colt, Dillon, Glock, FN, KAC, M203, SIG, Remington Armorer, SPR
Current Occupation
IE- with a PMC. Previously with BW and SOC.
Barrett Armorer
Beretta LE Armorer
Colt M16/M4 Armorer
Dillon Aero Armorer
FN M240/249 Armorer
Glock Armorer
Knight's Armament SR-25 Armorer
M203 Armorer
Remington LE Armorer
Sig LE Armorer
Surefire Low-light Instructor

Would you like his email? He is in Afghanistan right now, but he has internet.
 
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