What do you think of DPMS quality in general?

[Joe Demko]

"Serious use."

I'm just frivolous, perhaps. Or maybe my lifestyle is different from the rest of you. It is not a thing of immediate and debilitating concern to me if one of the various semi-automatic rifles I own might fail three fourths of the way through a 1,000 shot string. I don't carry one of those rifles to work with me. I don't keep one loaded at my side while I am cooking dinner. We're pretty short on feral ghouls, raiders, Enclave, and Brotherhood Outcasts around here, lately.
I understand wanting "the best" (whatever that is, and it differs by what your purpose is) for its own sake. All the same, I wouldn't go getting all verklempt because some guys on the internet say your rifle isn't good enough for them.
Another member of this site, who shouldn't go getting a bloated ego, is fond of stating that 99% of the AR's sold are good enough for 99% of shooters. If you are one of the 1%, you aren't here asking for advice or approval. I figure he's right.

 

[FlyinBryan]

"Serious use."

I'm just frivolous, perhaps. Or maybe my lifestyle is different from the rest of you. It is not a thing of immediate and debilitating concern to me if one of the various semi-automatic rifles I own might fail three fourths of the way through a 1,000 shot string. I don't carry one of those rifles to work with me. I don't keep one loaded at my side while I am cooking dinner. We're pretty short on feral ghouls, raiders, Enclave, and Brotherhood Outcasts around here, lately.
I understand wanting "the best" (whatever that is, and it differs by what your purpose is) for its own sake. All the same, I wouldn't go getting all verklempt because some guys on the internet say your rifle isn't good enough for them.
Another member of this site, who shouldn't go getting a bloated ego, is fond of stating that 99% of the AR's sold are good enough for 99% of shooters. If you are one of the 1%, you aren't here asking for advice or approval. I figure he's right.

flyinbryan "likes" this

 

[stanger04]

Walther makes Colt's .22 AR type rifles and so Colt still felt the need to put their name on them, so they are still junk Colts.

S&W .22 AR's are not good guns, the faux buffer tube is easy to break and then the gun is useless.

These are still AR type rifles as each company markets them that way. Point is I'm not saying an just because one thing isn't mil-spec throw it out, all I'm saying is that when you want to say top tier guns are mil-spec while others are not is not a factual statement.

If you want to say an M&P is an upper tier gun compared to DPMS you are wrong, both guns are equal, you really need to read the basic package and options available literature.

The only point I'm trying to make is all manufacturers have had bad gun models and/or problems. If DPMS was doing things almost dangerously wrong then yes they would be out of business, same reason K-Mart quit selling guns, it helped them beat out paperwork errors that were going to cause enormous fines.

It's weird too that a buddy of mine has a Spikes lower yet it is full of DPMS parts, obviously there is some misinformation somewhere about mil-spec.

The only gun I could really say is over priced for what it is is the Ruger 556. It is a nice gun and shoots very well but for that price there are more options.

I think if a man decides he wants to buy a cheap AR to start with and only wants to spend between 5 and 6 hundred dollars, a DPMS is not a bad choice. What other gun can you get for that price new and I don't mean a couple hundred more but that exact price.

A starter to AR's should really buy new and know what is in the gun, they are already learning and when buying used they don't know what the previous owner may or may not have done to the gun.

I think it's great that somebody chooses to buy an AR, it keeps the area growing with shooters, designers, and after market manufacturers. There are enough people trying to get rid of them, the last thing needed is someone to go around telling a bunch of people they own crap, just because they haven't seen something or know something.

I work with a lot of "gun salesmen" most of them don't know crap except for a few guns. Salesmen bull a lot problem is when they do it too long they actually think what they say is true all the time.

Show some numbers on sales, returns, and failure rates before a gun is knocked, that is fact, saying you saw something isn't.

 

[kwelz]

Walther makes Colt's .22 AR type rifles and so Colt still felt the need to put their name on them, so they are still junk Colts.

While a monstrous marketing snafu by colt it still isn't in any way indicative of the Quality of Colt manufactured firearms.

S&W .22 AR's are not good guns, the faux buffer tube is easy to break and then the gun is useless.

I have never seen a single case of this or hear about it. Examples please.

These are still AR type rifles as each company markets them that way. Point is I'm not saying an just because one thing isn't mil-spec throw it out, all I'm saying is that when you want to say top tier guns are mil-spec while others are not is not a factual statement.

They are AR type rifles not ARs. Neither in any way claims to be close the the TDP and one isn't even made by the company that has the name on it.

If you want to say an M&P is an upper tier gun compared to DPMS you are wrong, both guns are equal, you really need to read the basic package and options available literature.

Care to back that up with ANY actual information? Stock DPMS rifles do not use M4 Feedramps, they don't have a chrome lined chamber and bore, Do not have proper specced chambers. The list goes on. Smith still has a few shortcomings but no where near the number that DPMS have.

The only point I'm trying to make is all manufacturers have had bad gun models and/or problems. If DPMS was doing things almost dangerously wrong then yes they would be out of business, same reason K-Mart quit selling guns, it helped them beat out paperwork errors that were going to cause enormous fines.

I am not talking about JUST specific models. I am talking about a pattern of cutting corners and not taking even the most basic steps to put out a quality product.

It's weird too that a buddy of mine has a Spikes lower yet it is full of DPMS parts, obviously there is some misinformation somewhere about mil-spec.

What are you saying? He purchased a Spikes Lower and put in a DPMS LPK? What is your point. Just because they will fit doesn't mean they are good quality.

The only gun I could really say is over priced for what it is is the Ruger 556. It is a nice gun and shoots very well but for that price there are more options.

On this we agree. It is overpriced and pointless for the market.

I think if a man decides he wants to buy a cheap AR to start with and only wants to spend between 5 and 6 hundred dollars, a DPMS is not a bad choice. What other gun can you get for that price new and I don't mean a couple hundred more but that exact price.

Nobody said otherwise. But some people, yourself included, seem to think that 600 dollar DPMS is going to perform just as well as a 900 BCM or DD. This isn't the case and by telling people this you are doing them a disservice.

A starter to AR's should really buy new and know what is in the gun, they are already learning and when buying used they don't know what the previous owner may or may not have done to the gun.

Good point. But they also should not buy cheap and then have all the issues that go along with it. It will turn people off to the platform and is mostly why people have this misconception about ARs being unreliable.

I think it's great that somebody chooses to buy an AR, it keeps the area growing with shooters, designers, and after market manufacturers. There are enough people trying to get rid of them, the last thing needed is someone to go around telling a bunch of people they own crap, just because they haven't seen something or know something.

You seem to be implying that knowledge is a bad thing. I can't say I agree with that. I am not going to tell someone who purchased a DPMS or bushmaster, or stag, or whatever, that they did well just to save their feelings.

I work with a lot of "gun salesmen" most of them don't know crap except for a few guns. Salesmen bull a lot problem is when they do it too long they actually think what they say is true all the time.

Show some numbers on sales, returns, and failure rates before a gun is knocked, that is fact, saying you saw something isn't.

I don't have access to the number of returns, etc when from where I used to work. but why don't you go ask some instructors how many second rate guns they have seen fail in class. It happens all the time.


Since you seem to feel the need to question everything I have said I feel it is my turn. What are your qualifications? How many of these do you own. What brads do you now or have yo owned in the past? Are you a dealer? A manufacturer? How many training classes have you been to? Which ones?

So far you have only posted in this thread. I can only assume you registered just for that purpose but have yet to show any actual knowledge on the subject. .

 

[FlyinBryan]

You seem to be implying that knowledge is a bad thing. I can't say I agree with that. I am not going to tell someone who purchased a DPMS or bushmaster, or stag, or whatever, that they did well just to save their feelings.

knowledge is not a bad thing, but its not a free pass for inappropriate skepticism.

you have said yourself that 99% of the ar's are fine for 99% of,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, you know.

me being in good physical condition is not a license to call others fat, based on the fact that i'm right.

there is a way to do it, and then there is that other way.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

good stuff

 

[stanger04]

I have been to quite a few armor's schools for different manufacturers, I have a few AR's and listed what I own already. I have owned a Colt is the past, it was okay but not something I ever fell in love with. I work for a dealer/distributor as a gunsmith.

I have seen 2 M&P .22's with broken or cracked stocks and as far as Colt goes, I feel if you are putting your name on it, it's your good or bad. If they will sign their name to junk what else will they do or not do.

I never once said a basic DPMS is a $1000 dollar rifle or as good, goes to my point of guns built for a purpose. DPMS isn't my favorite gun either, I like Spikes lowers but I get a better price on Sabre's ($65 a piece and no FFL fees) so I use them when I build. I like Colt LE carriers because they have more meat on bottom which goes back to the select fire control, even though I'll never need it.

I guess what I'm saying for a defense rifle that gets shot enough times a year to know how to shoot DPMS is good for the money and take the rest and stock up on ammo.

We have a NRA class where I work and is taught by a range master, who is also retired military and an active officer. His son's both own DPMS he bought them for them as starters and he owns a DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, and a few custom built guns. He is the one who told me about the gun in the shop I bought. His point and I agree with him is "It's cheap, fun to shoot, and if I beat it up I don't feel so bad because I don't have a couple of grand in it".

As far as what I have built I some change in one and only target shoot with it at home, don't like to take it out to range or woods, as I don't want to beat it up. I guess you can call it a show pony.

I agree there are a lot of better guns than DPMS but there are worse, I think you know that as well as I do. DPMS has faults but I think they do offer a decent platform to build on for someone that wants a high dollar gun but can't afford one. It gives them a gun to shoot while they can order parts and wait to build and by then depending on what they want they could have well over 1K in it.

I still believe I'd rather have a little less and never need it than, have a $1000 gun sitting in lay-a-way while I'm being robbed. There are a lot of people that only have $500-$600 and for that price DPMS isn't a bad chioce.

I know a few people with Olympics, is it exactly what they wanted no, but it was all they could afford and they wanted an AR. If they banned the sale of them tomorrow at least they still have an AR, not a great one but an AR none the less.

 

[-v-]

"Serious use."
I don't keep one loaded at my side while I am cooking dinner. We're pretty short on feral ghouls, raiders, Enclave, and Brotherhood Outcasts around here, lately.

I also approve of this, but don't forget them damn Fiends and Caesar's Legion too..

I would chime in too, that there is the "best" and then there is the good enough. The point being that most people will gain 80% utility from 20% of the capacity of a product. The Good Enough Revolution

From a mechanical standpoint, is an LMT or a LWRC a superior weapon to a DPMS of CMMG Bargain bin? Undeniably. But, best has many facets, and one of them is "best that you can afford". As you say, for $200 more, you can have a better rifle. But, for some people, another $200 might be hard to scrape together, or someone might choose to spend that $200 on ammunition and practice. As all defensive firearms go, its not the sheer mechanical wizardry of the rifle that will make a rifle effective when someone breaks into your home, its your profficency with that rifle. In that respect, a lesser gun with more practice will serve someone much better then a better gun with no practice.

As Azizza said (I think), for light to moderate use, most users will never notice the mechanical shortcomings of a lower tier AR. My guess is most defensive shootings don't involve 3-5 consecutive magazine dumps, while rolling around in the dirt for a few days. So, for most scenarios, 99.9% of the time a DPMS will do everything that a LWRC will, for 1/3 the cost. If you go to a class, or a war-zone and intentionally run your gun hard, you will see its shortcomings, but most (re: 99%) of AR's will never be run that hard. Hard use is a niche market and ARs that can take that and ask for more are a niche product.

Do I have a DPMS? Yes, their LR308B. Does it serve all my needs from HD to plinking to hunting, to gun games? It does, and it has yet to miss a step. Is it the best? No, but it certainly is "good enough." as Mikhail Kalashnikov famously said, the best is the enemy of the good.

 

[Skylerbone]

With all due respect, the majority here seem to be in agreement about the facts but the OP asked for past experiences with DPMS, whether they were a budget rifle, looked cheap and what people thought of them. He did not ask if we thought he could afford better or should buy one and save money for a better rifle later.

Had I battled it out here a year ago I would likely have opted to stick with my first choice (Armalite) and never bought my Rock River. Am I satisfied with my purchase? Yes. Could I have had a better rifle for the near $1,100 I spent? Pretty darn likely. I've learned more than I knew and I'll take knowledge over ego any day but Tuesday. Besides, on range day I still get guys walking over to drool over my RRA 'cause advertising really does work and it really is that accurate even for a short barrel.

I do hope no one is offended by what is discussed here, it seems though the original question is a bit too vague to be answered with a thumbs up/down. Perhaps someone here might repost as a poll??? "Which brand would you buy for $XXXX?".

 

[X-Rap]

To put this into perspective I would like to say I would rather have a Sportical and Pmags than any high speed Mini 14 with the after market mags of your choice if the SHTF.
Anybody disagree?

 

[Hani Pasha]

The take away message from this thread for me thus far seems to be that no one has anything to say about DPMS quality in general. Mr. Azizza seems to have no problem accepting that some of DPMS's pieces for hunting/varminteering are decent products... most of the harsher criticism seems to be leveled at the entry-level 5.56 models.

Perhaps this discussion would be even more helpful if we were to consider what a good "entry-level" AR is, and who makes them for good prices.

 

[krinko]

Joe Demko,
Yes and yes, again. Well said.
-----krinko

 

[will919]

I have a "DPMS" its been accurate and reliable.

THE END.

 

[mljdeckard]

Joe said verklempt.

 

[againstthagrane]

Oh, good. I'm in time for the monthly DPMS bashfest.

 

[srkavanagh6621]

So I take back what I said earlier, I decided to take the DPMS out and give it a little range visit! Im not a guy who is giong to go through thousand and thousand of rounds but wow was that thing accurate! The mark 12 consistently shot less than 1/2 MOA with cheap 55 grain FMJ! WOW! It shot just amazing! The finish isnt as nice as some AR but if you want a shooter for your occasional Coyote gun, I dont think you will find somthing that shoots better! Amazing, after saying that I have already started saving my pennies for a POF-415 for a little bit different purpose in mind. I think the DPMS will be more than adequate for hunting varmints! great gun, so some of you DPMS haters they have a place, accuracy!

 

[SpeedAKL]

Keep in mind that the truth lies between "DPMS Sucks" and "DPMS is just as good as a Colt or DD as a combat rifle". Unless you plan on using the gun primarily for HD or high-round-count activities like training or 3gun, there is little need to sell your DPMS. As precision or varmint guns they are actually quite a good value.

 

[33-805]

No statistical analysis here..

just one personal experience with one DPMS rifle. I went back and read the original post, and this seems to be the sort of anecdotal experience requested.

The DPMS AR I had was not acceptable, it had a history of never once finishing a 30 round mag with zero malfunctions. The mags used were proven on my other ARs, so that and the ammo used were eliminated as causes. I have not often seen such a collection of types of malfunctions in one firearm before. It had all the bad habits. The finish also began peeling off in sheets from the barrel and one side of the receiver. It looked like bad oven paint. One of the poorer firearm buying experiences I ever had, so I guess I am lucky not to have had too many like this.

The place I ordered it from was standup about it, and took it back for a refund, so all worked out well. So, my single experience was bad. Could I have gotten a lemon? I am sure I could have, but I will not purchase from them again.

 

[X-Rap]

Unless you plan on using the gun primarily for HD or high-round-count activities like training or 3gun, there is little need to sell your DPMS.

I really don't follow the logic on the HD, people are using quite an assortment of weapons with success in home defense. Are we now to believe that you need a LaRue for HD?
I say that even in a training scenario, if you have shot the gun and put it through the paces and it works then it is OK. Don't take junk and screw up other peoples time that they have payed for but if your gun shoots and holds up then don't be ashamed to use it.

 

[MCMXI]

The mark 12 consistently shot less than 1/2 MOA with cheap 55 grain FMJ! WOW!

My DPMS upper (24" heavy stainless fluted barrel with 1:8 twist) on a BM lower will consistently shoot in the .4s at 100 yards (five shot groups) but that's with my reloads using a 77gr SMK and 25.0gr or Varget. With XM193 it won't do any better than 1.5" at 100 yards (combat accuracy) so I don't know how you manage to shoot sub 0.5 MOA with "cheap 55 grain FMJ".

 

[Skylerbone]

To the nearest Mod. in the words of Flash Gordon; "End it now!"

 

[Horvath819]

Well I'm getting my DPMS Oracle AR .223/5.56 on Monday. I was going to send it back, but I think I've decided to keep it and take my chances .

 

[Redlg155]

I find it quite quite humorous the we put so much emphasis on materials and specialty testing when deciding on the potential quality and durability of an AR15, yet we don't require the same standards for our handguns and shotguns.

Shoot your AR15, and if you find it reliable, use it for whatever purpose you deem necessary. For those "operators" and contractors who need the extra reliability and firepower, you should also have the channels to supply you with a selective fire weapon.

Some folks who own a DPMS choose to do so due to price relative to function and purpose. If your rifle takes a crap on you after a couple of mags fired rapidly, you need a new rifle, no matter what the brand.

 

[Mxracer239y]

One experience certainly does not define a company. That being said, my LRT-SASS has been awesome from day one. I would buy from DPMS again in a second.

I caution against glorifying 'military spec.' I have only worked in the defense industry a short time, but general consensus seems to be that meeting those specifications is a giant pain-in-the-arse. A company putting out a questionable product may be forced to raise quality levels to meet said specifications. If a manufacturer is already putting out quality product using alternative materials/methods/testing procedures, these additional tests and procedures can be a waste of time and resources.

 

[stanger04]

I agree 100% mil-spec and tactical are thrown around way too much. There are better things than mil-spec and worse things as well.

Look a pistols, I would rather have a more simplistic design as there are less parts to break. In the long run (example only not hocking one over the other) Glocks have been more reliable than the M9 and the 1911 plus more soldier proof. All are good guns but some require more work to keep optimum than others, plus the more parts to take out and clean more of a chance of losing something. Nothing against any military members but you guys know as well as I do if not better what people I'm talking about.

Go back to Stoner's focus on the M16 it had to be a good gun but it also had to be soldier proof. Remember when it first came out, it came with no cleaning kits, our powers that be said it never had to be cleaned. It was a disaster at first but that's mil-spec sometimes.

I'd side tracked this thread some and sorry, the best answer is you get what you pay for, DPMS covers entry and up as well as most other companies. You need to decide you uses for the gun and then look at the limitations of the guns you're interested in and of course as with most of us, the limitations of your bank account,lol.