What do you think of these small-bore, high velocity PDWs?
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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El Tejon
Member
"The one thing nice about a .30 caliber, whether a BAR with AP or an off the shelf M1A, is that you can shoot through a lot of stuff!" Wise Man in Tejas.
BerettaNut92
Member
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Tamara just wants to add a new caliber to her armory...
By the way...
Anybody who wants to play with the ballistic qualities of the new PDW rounds can just load .223 with .30 cal sabots into 7.62x25mm Tokarev and shoot it from a CZ52, Tokarev, or one of those semi-auto carbines made off of PPSh parts kits.
Otherwise if you don't reload, you can still buy it made as ".223 Timbs" from Quality Cartridge.
If you are rolling your own, just don't use SS109 5.56 projos though, if you do, you're in trouble for manufacturing armor piercing handgun ammo. Not that plain FMJ won't work as well and be legal.
Anybody who wants to play with the ballistic qualities of the new PDW rounds can just load .223 with .30 cal sabots into 7.62x25mm Tokarev and shoot it from a CZ52, Tokarev, or one of those semi-auto carbines made off of PPSh parts kits.
Otherwise if you don't reload, you can still buy it made as ".223 Timbs" from Quality Cartridge.
If you are rolling your own, just don't use SS109 5.56 projos though, if you do, you're in trouble for manufacturing armor piercing handgun ammo. Not that plain FMJ won't work as well and be legal.
NotQuiteSane
Member
I belive the correct term is "Solution in need of a problem"
NQS
NQS
blades67
Member
I think I'd like to have an HK PDW.
natedog
Member
Any chance the 5-7 pistol will become available for mortals?
Nightcrawler
Member
Not unless current bans on "armor piercing pistol ammunition" are repealed...
sixgun_symphony
member
The PDW is an obvious choice for SWAT entry teams when the criminals are wearing body armor.
Regular troops might use it for urban warfare.
sixgun_symphony
member
I have heard that rumor but I don't know if it is true.
Do you have any links to some evidence to back your assertions?
Dave Markowitz
Member
I prefer the original"PDW" -- the M1 Carbine. I wouldn't use it as a battle rifle, but for close-in defense it gives ballistics similar to a .357 Magnum rifle and penetrates body armor well.
Better yet, just issue rear echelon guys M-4 Carbines, which are going to be a lot more effective than the FN or HK popguns.
Better yet, just issue rear echelon guys M-4 Carbines, which are going to be a lot more effective than the FN or HK popguns.
TexasVet
Member
quote:
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The question is, can 9mm, .40, 10mm, and .45 be loaded to defeat soft armor, flak jackets, and kevlar helmets
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Why bother when .38 Super JHP will penetrate any level two vest out there already? For that matter, so will a .22 LR from a rifle length barrel. At least that's what the label on the last Second Chance vest I looked at said.
The P90 is cute but the ammo is basically a 50 year old Johnson wildcat, the .30 carbine necked down to .22 cal. And the 5/7 is ugly, awkward and bulky.
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The question is, can 9mm, .40, 10mm, and .45 be loaded to defeat soft armor, flak jackets, and kevlar helmets
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Why bother when .38 Super JHP will penetrate any level two vest out there already? For that matter, so will a .22 LR from a rifle length barrel. At least that's what the label on the last Second Chance vest I looked at said.
The P90 is cute but the ammo is basically a 50 year old Johnson wildcat, the .30 carbine necked down to .22 cal. And the 5/7 is ugly, awkward and bulky.
NotQuiteSane
Member
What? Aren't the guy's in the rear issued empty beer cans to throw at the enemy?
NQS
NQS
Gonna just have to trust me on this one.
I don't think this specific info is all over the net (and probably a good thing), since most people don't think this far outside the box.
HOWEVER, in my former employment we were warned of this reality. Wondering if it was horsepucky or not, I brought a Ruger .22 mag single six to work and we did a private evaluation.
One a level II vest we penetrated the front and almost completely penetrated the back. We couldn't get away with crapping out a IIIA vest so I have no idea.
But my gut tells me you would probably get complete penetration with substantial loss of energy after entering soft tissue.
sixgun_symphony
member
I heard that the 7.62x25mm Tokorov round will penetrate through a vest as well.
I suppose that a Tokorov pistol and a PPSh submachinegun kit might yet have alot going for it. The PPSh has what? a 72rd drum magazine?
I suppose that a Tokorov pistol and a PPSh submachinegun kit might yet have alot going for it. The PPSh has what? a 72rd drum magazine?
DMK
Member
Quote from the FN site
That is interesting. Sounds like a good quality for law enforcment ammo despite all the ugly images of overpenetration one would get considering normal AP ammo.
Agent Z
Member
All this info from obviously well informed people is simply astounding. I'm soaking all the ballistical info up like a sponge.
My father has drilled it into my brain to think simple. So I'm going to ask a question pertaining to simple logic.
If your in a shoot situation against a foe with body armor why spend money on special weapons and ammo to penetrate body armor?? Why not just aim a little higher and blast away at the head area??
Heaven forbid I should go astray and become a criminal and end up in a fire fight with a police officer. But knowing he's wearing body armor guess where I'm going to attempt to be aiming??
Unless I'm stupid (which I don't think I am) why worry about body armor. Just change your aim point.
My father has drilled it into my brain to think simple. So I'm going to ask a question pertaining to simple logic.
If your in a shoot situation against a foe with body armor why spend money on special weapons and ammo to penetrate body armor?? Why not just aim a little higher and blast away at the head area??
Heaven forbid I should go astray and become a criminal and end up in a fire fight with a police officer. But knowing he's wearing body armor guess where I'm going to attempt to be aiming??
Unless I'm stupid (which I don't think I am) why worry about body armor. Just change your aim point.
yy
Member
re: penetration
for muzzle velocity below 1,000 fps, i have research that shows non-magnum rounds do not completely penetrate body armor up to level II. Certainly no level III. (without the trauma plate). But rifles routinely defeat body armor. I believe that's what happens with the .22 magnum.
But the same research showed that short of penetration, bigger bullet give bigger momentum, hence bigger punch. after penetration, the bullet can go pretty wild unless it fragments.
So the key is to send the heaviest bullet the fastest. Small bore helps with the bullet shape.
but I echo the last simple question: armor maybe irrelevant if the target is behind cover. The headshot may be harder but that's irrelevant at close range. Spraying more bullet improves chance, not aim.
so what's the application for light bullet, close to rifle speed, and tiny cross section? it doesn't fit any of my imagined scenarios.
for muzzle velocity below 1,000 fps, i have research that shows non-magnum rounds do not completely penetrate body armor up to level II. Certainly no level III. (without the trauma plate). But rifles routinely defeat body armor. I believe that's what happens with the .22 magnum.
But the same research showed that short of penetration, bigger bullet give bigger momentum, hence bigger punch. after penetration, the bullet can go pretty wild unless it fragments.
So the key is to send the heaviest bullet the fastest. Small bore helps with the bullet shape.
but I echo the last simple question: armor maybe irrelevant if the target is behind cover. The headshot may be harder but that's irrelevant at close range. Spraying more bullet improves chance, not aim.
so what's the application for light bullet, close to rifle speed, and tiny cross section? it doesn't fit any of my imagined scenarios.
Agent Z
Member
I'd rather go up against a person who sprays bullets than a person who aims any day.
T.Stahl
Member
How would in such a situation a HK PDW be a better choice than a G36C or M4?
Jim March
Member
The proper answer to armored assailants:
Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun with Garrett +P Hammerhead 540grain hardcast @ 1,550fps.
Will it penetrate? WHO CARES? They'll feel like they've been run over by a Mack truck regardless.
Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun with Garrett +P Hammerhead 540grain hardcast @ 1,550fps.
Will it penetrate? WHO CARES? They'll feel like they've been run over by a Mack truck regardless
.goosegunner
Member
If you don't bother with the shape of the bullet (round nose / pointy nose) and bullet deformation (and deformation of the material you shoot at), what determines if a bullet will penetrate something or not is roughly if it has enought (kinetic)energy per area.
The formula for kinetic-energy per area is:
E/A=(1/2)*m*(v^2)/(phi*(d/2)^2)
where m is the mass of the bullet, v is the velosity and d is the diameter.
and using this formula I can find the velosity a .44 must have to penetrate the same as a .22 (where thjey have the same E/A)
asuming: .22mag: m=0.003 [kg] , v=600[m/s] , d=0.0056[m]
.44mag : m=0.020[kg] , v=what we want to find, d=0.011[m]
the velosity of the .44 will be:
v= Sqr.root((0.5*0.003*600^2*0.011^2)/(0.0056^2*0.5*0.02)=456.5[m/s]
I don't know if 456 [m/s] is about normal for a .44mag but if it is, the two will penetrate about the same. ( but the .44 will probably do more demage on the other side of the penetrated material)
Nightcrawler
Member
A very hot loaded .44 Mag could get those kinds of velocities.
It'd work even better with a very hard, steel jacketed, pointed bullet, but that'd probably be illegal (though cool).
.357 Magnum with a steel jacketed, pointed bullet would be a great armor-buster too. Since, in a revolver, you don't have to worry about feed ramps and such, you can make the bullet as sharp as you want and it'll still function.
It'd work even better with a very hard, steel jacketed, pointed bullet, but that'd probably be illegal (though cool).
.357 Magnum with a steel jacketed, pointed bullet would be a great armor-buster too. Since, in a revolver, you don't have to worry about feed ramps and such, you can make the bullet as sharp as you want and it'll still function.
Robert inOregon
Member
There is a race to build an affordable PDW cartridge. It is the primary objection an agency has against using such a weapon. Costs for ammunitions are two to three times more than current issue. At Shot there were a number of companies showing off new PDW concepts and other that have managed to get their existing products classified as "sporting" by BATF in order to increase audience and market share.
The main selling point that all these companies are repeating over and over are that the PWD's have an effective range no greater than 400 meters, will not exit soft tissue targets and do not ricochet. That is very attractive, at least in theory, to any city trying to control litigation cost from third party injuries. Has very little to do with penetrating body armor.
The main selling point that all these companies are repeating over and over are that the PWD's have an effective range no greater than 400 meters, will not exit soft tissue targets and do not ricochet. That is very attractive, at least in theory, to any city trying to control litigation cost from third party injuries. Has very little to do with penetrating body armor.
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